US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Heretic]

Open question to correct my lack of knowledge on this topic. I voted USAPA in without personally hearing a promise of when a contract with management would be completed. I have read numerous times by multiple posters here, that USAPA promised as a campaign issue that a contract would be delivered in XXX amount of time. It is certainly possible that I missed this while living my life. Can anyone here with validated proof verify these claims to me? Thanks in advance.
Heretic

 

[traderjake]

Sorry to change the tempo, but without insulting anyone here... Traderjake, why do you say "DOH postion", instead of "DOH with conditions and resrtictions"? Do you see them both as the same thing? Perhaps I am not understanding the difference. Everytime I read USAPA's take on this, they use the latter term. I am well aware of the "west pilots" intransigence of adding conditions and restrictions to the Nichalau decision.
If one is arguing in a truthful manner about a conflict, should not one argue both sides "fact/position" to the others?

Respectfully, if not in agreement.

They use the term because the unfairness of straight DOH is obvious to everyone.

Under USAPA's DOH if we furlough a thousand pilots how many are East pilots?

If we merge with another airline what happens to the conditions and restrictions?

If conditions and restrictions fix the unfairness of DOH would you agree to the NIC seniority list with conditions and restrictions?

 

[RSVP767]

The only people that think it is a turd are east pilot. Projecting your opinion onto others will not get you very far.

Just to remind you and once again put things in context and correct east misunderstanding. Here are the transcripts of what judge Wake was losing sleep over.

This trial was NOT about the merits of the Nicolau or arbitration. No matter how hard usapa tried to make it. That is what judge Wake was losing sleep over. That he had allowed usapa to much lee way away from the DFR and making it about the award.

Thanks for the post. I particularly liked this part:

THE COURT: -- were people happy, were they unhappy. The answer is, viewed in isolation, which is
irrelevant, East Pilots were happy or unhappy with certain things on the seniority list and the same is true as the West Pilots. But union democracy is not about that. It's about voting on the entire CBA.

If the CBA passes, good luck with DFR2.

 

[Heretic]

They use the term because the unfairness of straight DOH is obvious to everyone.

"Term" or position?

Under USAPA's DOH if we furlough a thousand pilots how many are East pilots?

Straightforward. First in, last out. If this process is not acceptable. Do not merge.

If we merge with another airline what happens to the conditions and restrictions?

If we merge. What happens to pay rates, vacation, reserve system. Is that how a labor force should negotiate, based on "IF"?

If conditions and restrictions fix the unfairness of DOH would you agree to the NIC seniority list with conditions and restrictions?

We'll see. It's a tad bit more complicated than that at this point, no?

 

[Phoenix]

The corruption you support at usapa is quite dishonorable. Your attempt to steal, or better yet, create a windfall for yourselves is pathetic. Your majority is the only power you have in this. However you must sacrifice your morality and honor (if you ever had any) to justify your plot.

The East pilots have to live with themselves. Unhappy and downtrodden as ever.

Keep blowing your horn.

 

[traderjake]

Straightforward. First in, last out. If this process is not acceptable. Do not merge.

Perfect example of the fundamental unfairness of DOH even with conditions and restrictions.

Before the merger the last East pilot was one number from being furloughed.

After the merger .you think it's fair to furlough the majority of the West pilots before the bottom East pilot.

That why we have laws and courts, to protect the minority from the tryranny of the majority.

Fortunately you're not calling the shots here.

 

[Metroyet]

Thanks for the post. I particularly liked this part:

THE COURT: -- were people happy, were they unhappy. The answer is, viewed in isolation, which is
irrelevant, East Pilots were happy or unhappy with certain things on the seniority list and the same is true as the West Pilots. But union democracy is not about that. It's about voting on the entire CBA.

If the CBA passes, good luck with DFR2.

One can always count on an eastie to totally confuse the context of things and come to a conclusion 180 degrees from reality. Wake was specifically referring to the fact that it is crystal clear that the seniority section was never intended to be individually voted on. This is just one reason usapa is in full meltdown to avoid meeting The Honorabl Neil M. Wake again. If they do, they know they're lies will go nowhere...just like last time. Unfortunately for usapa it's virtually guarenteed the companies case will be remanded to him. Thanks Doug!

 

[luvn737s]

Sorry to change the tempo, but without insulting anyone here... Traderjake, why do you say "DOH postion", instead of "DOH with conditions and resrtictions"? Do you see them both as the same thing? Perhaps I am not understanding the difference. Everytime I read USAPA's take on this, they use the latter term. I am well aware of the "west pilots" intransigence of adding conditions and restrictions to the Nichalau decision.
If one is arguing in a truthful manner about a conflict, should not one argue both sides "fact/position" to the others?

Respectfully, if not in agreement.

The Conditions and Restrictions were authored by one person with virtually no west input. Were the west pilots allowed input, perhaps there would be a shred of hope in getting some support behind them. Instead USAPA has decided to treat the west as some annex of the east and has chosen to rely on their numbers alone to force their will on the entire pilot group. While majority rule is certainly the perogative of the union, the integration is a different animal, begun under different rules with rights or each side clearly preserved.

USAPA could end this civil war in an instant by officially adopting the Nicolau award. After that, if they were to negotiate sweeteners to ease it's ratification, the west would then be in the position it will likely be for many years, that of the minority party, and they wouldn't have much to sue over. It would be shortsighted of USAPA to take this tack, but I'm not sure it would be illegal.

 

[cynic]

Thanks for the post. I particularly liked this part:

THE COURT: -- were people happy, were they unhappy. The answer is, viewed in isolation, which is
irrelevant, East Pilots were happy or unhappy with certain things on the seniority list and the same is true as the West Pilots. But union democracy is not about that. It's about voting on the entire CBA.

If the CBA passes, good luck with DFR2.

This has always been a case of the majority abusing a minority. Why would a majority voting in favor of a contract proposal have any impact at all? What if they proposed to put all PHL pilots below CLT pilots on the seniority list? Think that would pass DFR muster?

 

[A320 Driver]

USAPA could end this civil war in an instant by officially adopting the Nicolau award. After that, if they were to negotiate sweeteners to ease it's ratification, the west would then be in the position it will likely be for many years, that of the minority party, and they wouldn't have much to sue over.

OK.... eat the Nic, but make any changes and "they wouldn't have much to sue over"????

It doesn't TAKE much to sue. Lets be honest. There is no middle ground that would stop DFR II from being filed. We will be embroiled in this quagmire the rest of our careers, won't we? Every proposal I've seen on this board has been trumped with an objection by some East or West guy. You want what you want and that is IT! This is very indicative of the response that can be expected over any compromise that could be proffered.

Now you can start pointing the finger at each other to assign blame again.

Driver <_<

 

[RSVP767]

This has always been a case of the majority abusing a minority. Why would a majority voting in favor of a contract proposal have any impact at all? What if they proposed to put all PHL pilots below CLT pilots on the seniority list? Think that would pass DFR muster?

No, because that would be arbitrary, and beyond a "wide range of reasonableness".

 

[nic4us]

No, because that would be arbitrary, and beyond a "wide range of reasonableness".

As opposed to what usapa attempts, which is arbitrary, in bad faith, and discriminatory.

All three of the criteria of a breach of DFR. Nice hat trick usapa.

 

[nic4us]

Straightforward. First in, last out. If this process is not acceptable. Do not merge.

Perfectly acceptable.

The entire east pilot group being the last in, feel free to argue amongst youselves as to who would be the first out.

 

[nic4us]

We will be embroiled in this quagmire the rest of our careers, won't we?

Driver <_<

Yes!

And the options are the Nic with a substantial raise for everyone, or status quo, seperate ops, and the perpetual company whipsaw of one pilot group against the other.

 

[AstroLounge]

Yes!

And the options are the Nic with a substantial raise for everyone, or status quo, seperate ops, and the perpetual company whipsaw of one pilot group against the other.

Status Quo or separate operations FOREVER. There is absolutely NO NEED to 'mesh' the operation when everyone knows OIL and WATER do NOT Mix. This ongoing pissing match will never be resolved any more than Israel and Iran becoming close diplomatic Allies. Parker and Cronnies REALLY dropped the ball in this area of labor relations and now must Move Forward. There doesn't need to be any East/West animosity either.........just operate as TWO Divisions under ONE Umbrella. No need to sing Kumbaiya or have Ice Cream Socials.