US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Freebird]

Specious.

Yep. It's hard to argue with the truth isnt it?

 

[AWE Dog]

Please name the 17 year, never furloughed, east pilot put behind a AWA newhire or quit spreading lies.

Oh, But a 15 or 16 year is OK......

 

[luvn737s]

Just as the number of so-called "fence sitters" was vastly overestimated, the number of hard-core east pilots has been wildly underestimated. Many complain that the union has been hijacked by the hard core minority while the vast majority are being taken along for a ride. But there is precious little proof for this theory.

By all reasonable estimates, Cleary's abyssmal performance should have earned him a recall long ago. But he either has support beyond all explanation, or there is epic apathy for poor leadership in the face of a rising tide of pilot pay and benefits.

If it is the first, then there should be no pretense among east and west pilots that they are speaking to a moderate on the jumpseat, crewroom or hotel van. There are insufficient moderates to flush Cleary and crew out of office and install a slate that can actually work together to move all the pilots forward. I have a hard time believing this to be true.

If it's the second, then the US pilots are getting the leadership they deserve.

I am lukewarm supporter of Leoniedas. While I admire their dedication to avoiding face-to-face confrontation, I think sitting in Phoenix and relying on the glacial pace of the judicial system to produce fairness and progress is expensive and a bit lazy. If the west pilots won't even go out and participate in informational picketing and marches on Charlotte USAPA HQ, then what makes the east pilots think they will be any more motivated to take their upgrade on the east coast?

If the west pilots feel it isn't worth their time to try and engage their east counterparts, you have to ask the question, "WHY?" Is it more laziness, or do they really think that there are too few moderates to turn the ship? What would be the psychological benefit to the PHX reps to have 50 or more PHX pilots behind them at BPR meetings?

Do the west pilot realize that a 100% win on Addington only places them in the same position they were about 6 months after USAPA was voted in and their DOH proposal was proffered? The only thing that will produce a ratified contract with Nicolau in it and improved pay and working conditions will be the support of sufficient east pilots. And the only thing that will yield a harvest of moderate supporters will be consistent, persistent presence in PHL, DCA and CLT, in their mailboxes, and at BPR meetings and getting the message to east pilots outside of USAPA-controlled channels. There is no substitute for shoe leather.

Make no mistake, I do not think that there would be anything productive to come from a physical confrontation. We've seen this at other unions in the past and it's hurts everyone and their cause. But open dialog and putting faces to ideas is a tactic long overdue.

Pursuing this is the only way to accurately gauge support for a moderate solution, which should involve either the re-write of USAPA C&BLs or the outright removal of USAPA as Agent for the pilots.

If, after the best effort is made to secure support for a moderate solution, it becomes clear that the east resolve is as hard core as their abscence of action on Cleary belies, then each west pilot will have to decide whether or not it is in their best interest to continue pursuing a judicial remedy to the DOH list, or to accept the current stalemate.

From there they can make a decision about the viability of remaining involved in a career with USAirways and it's hybrid regional-major pay scales.

 

[nycbusdriver]

If the west pilots won't even go out and participate in informational picketing and marches on Charlotte USAPA HQ, then what makes the east pilots think they will be any more motivated to take their upgrade on the east coast?

Do you seriously think they could not be motivated to go picket in CLT? It's so easy.

Offer them $163/hr, or $149/hr, or $122/hr to go to CLT and picket USAPA HQ and see how many show up.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

You missed my retirement date by a couple of years.

Did you ever fly with Al O? Or just hear the stories.....

How much longer until you retire?

OH Johnny, no I was right on, did I hear stories? Your the only opinion that matters, "retirement party" , table for 1! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Just as the number of so-called "fence sitters" was vastly overestimated, the number of hard-core east pilots has been wildly underestimated. Many complain that the union has been hijacked by the hard core minority while the vast majority are being taken along for a ride. But there is precious little proof for this theory.

By all reasonable estimates, Cleary's abyssmal performance should have earned him a recall long ago. But he either has support beyond all explanation, or there is epic apathy for poor leadership in the face of a rising tide of pilot pay and benefits.

If it is the first, then there should be no pretense among east and west pilots that they are speaking to a moderate on the jumpseat, crewroom or hotel van. There are insufficient moderates to flush Cleary and crew out of office and install a slate that can actually work together to move all the pilots forward. I have a hard time believing this to be true.

If it's the second, then the US pilots are getting the leadership they deserve.

I am lukewarm supporter of Leoniedas. While I admire their dedication to avoiding face-to-face confrontation, I think sitting in Phoenix and relying on the glacial pace of the judicial system to produce fairness and progress is expensive and a bit lazy. If the west pilots won't even go out and participate in informational picketing and marches on Charlotte USAPA HQ, then what makes the east pilots think they will be any more motivated to take their upgrade on the east coast?

If the west pilots feel it isn't worth their time to try and engage their east counterparts, you have to ask the question, "WHY?" Is it more laziness, or do they really think that there are too few moderates to turn the ship? What would be the psychological benefit to the PHX reps to have 50 or more PHX pilots behind them at BPR meetings?

Do the west pilot realize that a 100% win on Addington only places them in the same position they were about 6 months after USAPA was voted in and their DOH proposal was proffered? The only thing that will produce a ratified contract with Nicolau in it and improved pay and working conditions will be the support of sufficient east pilots. And the only thing that will yield a harvest of moderate supporters will be consistent, persistent presence in PHL, DCA and CLT, in their mailboxes, and at BPR meetings and getting the message to east pilots outside of USAPA-controlled channels. There is no substitute for shoe leather.

Make no mistake, I do not think that there would be anything productive to come from a physical confrontation. We've seen this at other unions in the past and it's hurts everyone and their cause. But open dialog and putting faces to ideas is a tactic long overdue.

Pursuing this is the only way to accurately gauge support for a moderate solution, which should involve either the re-write of USAPA C&BLs or the outright removal of USAPA as Agent for the pilots.

If, after the best effort is made to secure support for a moderate solution, it becomes clear that the east resolve is as hard core as their abscence of action on Cleary belies, then each west pilot will have to decide whether or not it is in their best interest to continue pursuing a judicial remedy to the DOH list, or to accept the current stalemate.

From there they can make a decision about the viability of remaining involved in a career with USAirways and it's hybrid regional-major pay scales.

Well your quote says it all, "LUKE WARM SUPPORTER", so your support is AOL, open faces and dialog, ended at "WHY RIVER", the solution, ALPA, permanent seperate ops, remember 2, yes 2 ratifiable parties, (good luck on the EAST), YOUR SOLUTION, bring on the "CARDS" good luck ! MODERATE left with ALPA and it's numerous ( not just merger policy) shortcomings as a "ROUGE" "QUASI" national union, we luv LEE MOAK. ps AFA has no contract either, blame it on USAPA, MODERATE has left the EAST building a long time ago! MM!

 

[cactusboy53]

Well your quote says it all, "LUKE WARM SUPPORTER", so your support is AOL, open faces and dialog, ended at "WHY RIVER", the solution, ALPA, permanent seperate ops, remember 2, yes 2 ratifiable parties, (good luck on the EAST), YOUR SOLUTION, bring on the "CARDS" good luck ! MODERATE left with ALPA and it's numerous ( not just merger policy) shortcomings as a "ROUGE" "QUASI" national union, we luv LEE MOAK. ps AFA has no contract either, blame it on USAPA, MODERATE has left the EAST building a long time ago! MM!

Please, sir. Step away from the espresso machine. You are spewing all over yourself.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Please, sir. Step away from the espresso machine. You are spewing all over yourself.

LOL, MM! CLT update was right on! The last EVP election might be a good barometer of expresso machine spewing is all about! Donate pleez!

 

[Barrister]

Do you seriously think they could not be motivated to go picket in CLT? It's so easy.

Offer them $163/hr, or $149/hr, or $122/hr to go to CLT and picket USAPA HQ and see how many show up.

Yea, and let them pick up their 330 type while they are in town!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

The answere to that question is..they are not.

Not my opinion, I was told this straight from Scott Kirby. At least that is how I understood it when he said "the sad part is I do not think you guys will ever get a contract, judging from the few sessions I have sat in on.... "

The question is going to be how does the West prosecute usapa for intentional delay to force seperate ops. Frankly, I do not have a huge problem with it, because it falls in line with the TA and what seperate ratification would have given the east pilots under ALPA and the TA. However, I think the company is having problems trying to be fluid in a changing competetive enviroment while working under contracts that are becoming more and more out of date. That is, the company has to work with 2 contracts that were negotiated under vastly different circumstances from where they find themselves today. More and more frequently in the course of managing the company, they have to decide which contract they are going to have to break, the east pilot's, the West pilot's, or the TA. For instance, how do they recall pilots. They have an arbitrated decision that allowed the out of seniority furloughs to take place, but did not answere a recall question. On top of that they allowed the east furloughs that recalled West then furloughed to transfer east, but now will not allow more senior furloughs to be recalled east? I smell grievence for sure, more arbitration, more legal cost, more pissed off pilots either way.

So what we have is usapa ( who is incapable of reaching a joint contract), the company ( who is ever more frequently desiring a new contract) and the West pilots ( who have no representation and find that it is their contracts that gets broken most frequently)

hmmm...what to do?

Well I can give you 122 million reasons why Parker isn't sweating seperate ops....at least not yet!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[nic4us]

Do you seriously think they could not be motivated to go picket in CLT? It's so easy.

Why would anyone want to picket usapa hq?

Seriously? I am not trying to pick on luvn, but exactly what would picketing an inconsequencial organization of incompetents achieve? Well maybe you could get a Ted Reed article saying how important usapa is because it was picketed.

What would the picket signs say? "usapa-can't get us a contract-but everybody already knows that!"

I have a better idea. How about we all start ignoring usapa? Everybody else has.

 

[traderjake]

I'm only human so my moral compass is subject to the variations that all are, but I think it is pretty steady. I want you to tell me, and quote the post please, where you think my moral compass is off.

That is an incredibly bold, arrogant, and flat out stupid thing to say to someone you do not know.

How is my questioning your morality any more "stupid" than you questioning my judgment?

Please quote the post that causes you to question my judgment.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Why would anyone want to picket usapa hq?

Seriously? I am not trying to pick on luvn, but exactly what would picketing an inconsequencial organization of incompetents achieve? Well maybe you could get a Ted Reed article saying how important usapa is because it was picketed.

What would the picket signs say? "usapa-can't get us a contract-but everybody already knows that!"

I have a better idea. How about we all start ignoring usapa? Everybody else has.

WELL you could say the AFA can't get a contract and I don' t support USAPA , so I will blame them for my situation and bypass obvious reality that , the FRAT boys are the real enemy! Despite my monies on you views! MM!

 

[traderjake]

. I get the feeling he is trying very hard to figure out what is right rather than who is right. I often disagree with his opinion, but I think he is more annoyed at the rhetoric and attacks, than the principle that the west is standing on.

Just my opinion guys... not that it matters. Carry on.

He might start by cutting back on the rhetoric and attacks that he posts.

There is no ambiguity here.

It is wrong to take someone's job and give it to someone else who could not hold the same job at their own company.

It's wrong to furlough the majority of the West before you furlough one East pilot.

DOH does both.

I know my tone is harsh but I will not be an apologist for the unethical behavior of my coworkers.

 

[nic4us]

WELL you could say the AFA can't get a contract
I don' t support USAPA , so I will blame them for my situation
bypass obvious reality that , the FRAT boys are the real enemy!
Despite my monies on you views! MM!

Crazy Chester followed me, and he caught me in the fog.
He said I will fix your rack, if you take Jack my dog.
I said wait a minute Chester, ya know I'm a peaceful man.
He said thats okay son, won't ya feed him when ya can?

MM, lets get a recording artist to put music to your posts. We will make millions. Try to throw a few more ryhmes in there though!