US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[tripod727]

We have 2540 line pilots in September. Bottom wide body CA 946. New hire 2541 - 1544 = 997 in 7 years

Even under a worst case (every pilot stays to age 65) situation.

so are you saying that a new hire will jump ahead of the furloughed pilots?

 

[luvn737s]

We fully understand that the decision by the 9th does not bear on the merits of the Addington case. But that fact goes both ways. Some of the west poster here think that the words "unquestionably ripe" mean things other than "unquestionably ripe."

We on the east are well aware that the 9th decision is merely a delay. We fully expect a DFR suit to be filed once we have a new contract.

We on the east say, "Bring it on." We also advise, "Bring your checkbooks."

But you still haven't answered the question, "Why continue to support USAPA if they are constitutionally obligated to use DOH and will face impediments to implementation stretching perhaps many years? Why wouldn't you support a union whose C&BL's were crafted with equal input from east and west and who would not face such impediments?"

Is the power of the majority more important than the production of results?

 

[Crzipilot]

At the end of 2030 all current east pilots should be off the property.

Majority of current east pilots will be off the property, but not all of them

Try closer to 2036 or 38 they will then all be gone.....There's still a few youngsters that are currently flying on the east....

 

[LSS]

But you still haven't answered the question, "Why continue to support USAPA if they are constitutionally obligated to use DOH and will face impediments to implementation stretching perhaps many years? Why wouldn't you support a union whose C&BL's were crafted with equal input from east and west and who would not face such impediments?"

Is the power of the majority more important than the production of results?

Because you are blinded by your fervor over the NIC... nothing but the NIC will ever satisfy the West according to those who support this and who have posted here... First you were saying no West pilots would ever go East... then... the bravado of the West... "you can yank my gear" when the NIC is implemented... and now... oh my... PHX may be downsized... (what happened in LAS???)... If you continue to wish to be unreasonable and continue to demand the NIC or nothing... then nothing is what you may end up with... Understand... a court of law may not see it in the precise manner in which your obscure world envelopes you... USAPA (despite your wails of wrath)... is a damn sight better than ALPA... you may hate this Union, which is obvious... but because of your unwillingness to work with this Union... because of your sworn pledge to "destroy this Union"... you may very well be left in the dust. No one is stopping anyone from the West from getting involved... giving constructive input... and by the way... just how would "equal input from east and west" work with a new union? We're all one big happy family now (NOT!) What could a "new union" accomplished that couldn't be accomplished within the framework of USAPA???... Oh I know... their CB&L... no where in their CB&L's does it state... 'SCREW THE WEST PILOTS IN EVERY WAY TO SUNDAY".

 

[Crzipilot]

Now I have to ask. If you know that a law suit is going to be filed then you know that you are doing something wrong. why would you continue doing bad acts?

By your logic, just that fact that you file a lawsuit, you are predicting you will prevail. Different jury, different judge, different rules to the jury, different evidence allowed, different evidence disallowed. I.E. Completely different trial, with different circumstances. The only thing that may stay the same, is the amount of the legal bills.

After a CBA is ratified, anyone can bring forth a suit, doesn't mean they are right. Sorta like one of the dues objectors that went to arbitration regarding the agency fees. Seems in many postings, he, in his mind, believed he was right and USAPA was doing bad acts. Seems this individual was wrong and did not prevail.

So why would you continue to file frivolous lawsuits?

 

[Hate2fly]

Thanks for finally recognizing the truth!



Let's see... Kuwait, Moscow, Bahrain, Zurich and Accra... All new destinations. And that's before the merger is complete.

Also, did you happen to look at the combined route structure. Almost no overlap with the exception of a some hub to hub flying and Cleveland. What's the point of parking airplanes when there's no overlap? That's what's killed you and others in previous mergers. The overlap makes much of the flying redundant. Not so in a UA/CO merger.

Is DL parking airplanes and furloughing? Oh, wait... they are actually hiring.

Maybe you should take your head out of... the sand.

Looking forward to talking about this with you again next year.

767,

Looks like you have it all figured out. Should be fun to watch. My college roomate is a UAL 1991 hire so he will keep me up on the action.

Hate

 

[nic4us]

We fully understand that the decision by the 9th does not bear on the merits of the Addington case. But that fact goes both ways. Some of the west poster here think that the words "unquestionably ripe" mean things other than "unquestionably ripe."

We on the east are well aware that the 9th decision is merely a delay. We fully expect a DFR suit to be filed once we have a new contract.

We on the east say, "Bring it on." We also advise, "Bring your checkbooks."

This is probably aimed at me since I use the "unquestionably ripe" phrase often.

I fully understand the 9ths opinion. I also understand that we do not pull Addington out of a box if usapa were ever successful in ratifying a DOH contract. However, because of the history here, we would most likely be granted a preliminary injunction stopping the implementation of such a DOH contract until we could prove that usapa was in fact "unquestionably guilty". All a judge has to do is look and see that a jury has already found usapa liable, that the 9th ruled not ripe, that usapa went ahead and did just what "plaintiffs feared" anyway, and that another liable verdict is plausible if not likely.

Do you East posters understand that with a new trial will come new stategies, additional claims, broader damages? That if the company is pulled in with you, remedy for the damages will be wide open, and might include something like bump and flush?

Your only true strategy in this thing has been delay and outspend. That strategy has worked well for you so far, but speaks volumes on the merits of your defense.

I would suggest that USAPA pass the Nic in section 22 and look for mutual solutions to the East imposed impass we find ourselves in. I think USAPA is going to get another 5-12 months to come up with and accept such mutual solutions. If so, use the time well.

 

[Black Swan]

There are only a couple of events which will move this labor issue. The first being the East LOA 93 pay grievance, and the second being the seniority list (whatever it contains) being given to the company. And their response.We will have to wait on those two issues before there is any movement with regards to this topic.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I don't think that PHX will close but I am relying on the east view of the world.

If the east thinks that PHX will close where is our protection? Looks like a clear DFR to me. The east has reasonable knowledge that the west will be harmed but do nothing to protect the west. In fact write C&R that harm the west in that event.

So your answer is to furlough west captains before east pilots that were furloughed. Let's take that into court and let a jury of people look at that.

Your protection like all the others before you is your DOH, ASK PSA, etc as those before you when the WEST COAST, GSO, ORF< BWI, closed those bases, pilots displaced, PIT , BOS, ETC, try going into court and tell them a 25year employee has to be displaced because a 10 year employee lost his position! MM!

 

[cleardirect]

We have 2540 line pilots in September. Bottom wide body CA 946. New hire 2541 - 1544 = 997 in 7 years

Even under a worst case (every pilot stays to age 65) situation.

According to the seniority list that I am looking at E. Varini a 190 F/O is number 3373 on the latest bid.

The junior NB captain that I found was Spaulding 2057 on the bid list.
The junior WB captain number Laczko 946

That leaves 3373-2057=1316 F/O’s to the junior captain.

3373-946=2427 to the junior WB captain.

2012 9
2013 150
2014 214
2015 184
2016 230
2017 239
2018 259
Total 1285

So somewhere in 2018, 7 years for a new hire to make it to the junior captain. Not your reported 3.5 years.

2019 259
2020 244
2021 249
2022 205
2023 220
Total 2462

So somewhere in 2023, 12 years after a new hire arrives on the property not your wishful 7 years. In the mean time that new hire can look forward to the worst work rules in the industry. Waiting 7 years to make $125 per hour. Heck by 2018 commuters will have pasted that mark. That would be after working for $40 per hour on the 190 for how long?

Tell us again why anyone would want to come to us air and this mess?

2024 162
2025 171
2026124
2027 111
2028 81
2029 55
2030 41

Where did the other active 832 F/O’s disappear to? Did your numbers not work for you so you decided to change the game to fit your desired result?? Reality is a great place to live, try it sometime. But like I said before got any facts?

FIRST OFFICERS
70 3370 S.P.GROVE
71 3371 P.T.KINNEY
72 3372 K.D.KJELDSEN
73 3373 E. .VARINI

 

[Hate2fly]

clear,

You are forgetting about our 500 pilots on medicals.

You are forgetting about our 200 check airmen.

You are forgetting about our 90 guys on military.

The medicals will increase big time as we all get older and the check airmen numbers don't even show up on the bid. When they start to retire it will get wild around here.

Look clear, we have tried to tell you how this was going to go.......and as usual.........you have not listened.

Hate

 

[luvthe9]

And the 93 on leave..........

 

[luvn737s]

Because you are blinded by your fervor over the NIC...

I think you are the one blinded because the crux of the argument for a new union is that it subverts the Nic by including the west as equal participants in crafting a new integration methodology free from the DOH requirement in USAPA's C&BL's and their scorched earth relationship with the west. This "reset" if you will, completely negates any DFR by the virtue of equal participation in crafting the solution.

The replacement union would run on a platform of principals mirroring it's eventual C&BL's and dedicated to the two separate tasks of initial integration and the traditional role of a union and their role of supporting the needs of the US pilots.

The west and east would get to elect Constitutional Congress reps who would craft a C&BL's with equal input. They would then craft a integration methodology which would require independent ratification on both sides. With this in hand they would then turn to negotiating the remaining sections of the CBA with the company which would then be sent out for independent ratification. Once the CBA has passed, elections would be held to staff the pilot representitive positions. All further votes going forward would be the combined group.

Remember, there was no west participation in crafting USAPA's C&BL's. They simply satisfied themselves knowing they had sufficient numbers to pass whatever they wanted. Remember, they needed no plan B. This was a crucial error.

A replacement union would have the key advantage of unity before it ever started. There will certainly be some dissenters as it's impossible to please 100% of the people 100% of the time. But the percentage of dissenters and no-participants will likely be in the more menegeable single-digit percentages, rather than the 25-30% USAPA has cultivated.

USAPA relies on scapegoats and boogeymen to divert attention from their inability to garner signifiacant unity among the people who disagree with them. The folks who would form the core of the leadership of this union would be those who have, despite their differences, developed working relationships with their opposite-coast counterparts. They see the futility in continuing on USAPA's chosen path and no longer wish to be accomplices to Cleary's false pride-soaked agenda. He wins only when everyone else loses.

There are sufficient pilots out there who reject this and want to use their experience, common sense and the fraternity they always used associate with their profession, to move forward and leave this nightmare behind.

Join them.

 

[PullUp]

We will bring the checkbook not a problem. But so will usapa. They spent $3 million last time how much are you going to spend the next time?

3 million, 6 million, 9 million, 12 million....whatever it takes.
Have a nice day.

 

[tripod727]

Majority of current east pilots will be off the property, but not all of them

Try closer to 2036 or 38 they will then all be gone.....There's still a few youngsters that are currently flying on the east....

i'm 2040 andI know there were a few hired after me that were younger too