US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Pi brat]

No, the west wanted validation for the idea of playing by the rules and seeing the final outcome of the process they participated in fully and cooperatively. The idea that the east should be rewarded for tipping over the game board when they were losing is offensive to many west pilots. AOL was formed to reign in the tyranny of the majority and ensure that the minority's rights were not trampled. That is why they sought justice in the courts.

All the 9th said in effect is, there is no penalty for Intent to Unfairly Represent. However, when they actually do (and it appears that is their course, barring any major leadership upheaval) then they will face the penalty for not fairly representing the west pilots and incorporating the Nicolau list. The path to this DFR has been paved by USAPA by their past words and actions (including Bradford's admission for the founding of USAPA) and the outcome of DFR 2 should not be a surprise. However, it will put us back on the track to appeals to the 9th and SCOTUS and the resolution of the integration will be many, many years away.

This is why a new bargaining representitive is so important. By forming it cooperatively the clock is reset to the mediation process. The C&BL's can include a path to integration that does not disenfranchise either side and there can be an end to the infighting and lawsuits. This cannot happen under USAPA. A Constitutional Congress made up of equal numbers of east and west pilots can hammer out a new constitution and once integration is complete a pilot rep board can be seated that proportionally represents the pilots from the various bases.

USAPA is at a dead-end of their own making. I encourage everyone to consider embarking on a new flight plan toward integration, or to remain in an eternal deadlock with valuable dues money being wasted on lawyers fees into the indefinite future.

Sigh. There's a whole lot of wasted space filled with words I've never heard before. WE GET IT! If and when you think you have a case file it.

What is this other union you are alluding to? Details please. If you can come up with something that will work and bridge the gap I will certainly look at it.

 

[informed]

The Hon. Judge Neil Wake saw through the thinly veiled arguement of USAPA that they hadn't harmed anyone. He felt it necessary to stop USAPA before they did irrepairable harm. The DOH mandate in the C&BL's is what harms the west and unfairly represents them. Had they merely revised the C&BL's and retracted their DOH list, they would likely have seen the injunction lifted and they could have negotiated whatever they needed to to produce a passable contract.

But why would someone relying on billable hours recommend that solution to USAPA?

Penn - the only Ivy League school in a war zone. If you can't get into a decent school, there's always Penn.

"Wye" do you not ask your billable hours attorneys what chances you have in the future? I am just trying to be a new "Freund".

You lost, get over it. Every one will move on now, join in, leave or stay out of the way.

 

[luvn737s]

Sigh. There's a whole lot of wasted space filled with words I've never heard before. WE GET IT! If and when you think you have a case file it.

What is this other union you are alluding to? Details please. If you can come up with something that will work and bridge the gap I will certainly look at it.

What word is giving you such trouble? "Cooperatively"?

A new union can be formed if those, both east and west, dissatisfied with USAPA's poor performance and dead-end strategy work together to form a cooperative union from the start. ALPA did no favors for the west and would be a polarizing force on the east, so a new in-house union may be the best option. Of course USAPA will not go quietly (how many dictators ever do?) and it may be that a reperesentation vote that garners no clear majority and results in a temporary period of non-representation take place.

The mandate should be integration that is inclusive and representation that serves all pilots. USAPA has had over 2 years to try that and they refuse to acknowledge that the west deserves any consideration. They have destroyed any chance they have of working with the west.

But I truly believe that given a viable alternative union most pilots would opt to leave the stubbornness behind and move forward.

This is not an option under USAPA.

 

[informed]

The mandate should be integration that is inclusive and representation that serves all pilots. USAPA has had over 2 years to try that and they refuse to acknowledge that the west deserves any consideration. They have destroyed any chance they have of working with the west.

But I truly believe that given a viable alternative union most pilots would opt to leave the stubbornness behind and move forward.

This is not an option under USAPA.

The delay was mainly caused by the West pilots refusing to join USAPA or acknowledge them. Then there was the matter of some West pilots that were trying to sabotage the Union which is now being handled in the courts. You brought a frivolous DFR suit against USAPA and finally lost in court.

All along complaining that USAPA was working too slowly. Now and only now in defeat you want to leave this all behind and move on.

 

[767jetz]

You should really be concerned about your own backyard........last time I checked you guys had 1400 plus furloughed.......that should be fun to watch you tell your brothers how they should suck it up to some Continental pilot with a couple of years on the job. You need to check out how many wide body airplanes UAL has verses Continental. You have alot to lose!

I am quite aware of what's going on in my own backyard, since I get involved by attending meetings and voicing my opinions to my LEC. Concern is not the right word. Optimism, on BOTH sides, is more appropriate. Yes, it's about 1450 pilots, of which about 1000 were active. The rest were on other leaves already such as medical or military or voluntary furlough. Unless it can be proven that those furloughs and the parking of the entire 737 fleet was done SPECIFICALLY to make the second attempt at a merger with CO happen, then most likely the furloughs wills go behind all all pilots on both sides.

The merger committee has already stated that furloughs are not historically treated as active employees in integrations, with one or two very rare and obscure exceptions like a merger that happened many years ago between two airlines in Canada. Interestingly, if Continental adopted United work rules and nothing else changed, the combined airline would instantly need 800 more pilots to operate what they have today. I wonder if east or west ever considered that? I'd say instantly bringing back 800 of the 1000 pilots overnight would be quite a large benefit to our furloughed pilots. Not to mention they would be coming back to a much better paying contract on top of that.

Additionally, the MEC and merger committees have been very clear in stating that while there is a huge upside to all of us in this merger, it is most certainly NOT about repairing any perceived damage to our careers from the past. There will be no snap backs to contract 2000 or restoration of pensions.

As for widebodies, it's about 4 to 1. Everyone at CAL & UAL has alot to lose. We also have alot to gain by directing our combined attention to the company and the Joint CBA. I guarantee you that there will not be a civil war over seniority. I had the opportunity to meet with some CAL counterparts at a council meeting last week. They are very committed to working through the seniority integration process, and then putting it behind us and moving forward together. DL & US were mentioned continuously throughout the meeting as examples of the right and wrong way to move forward.

 

[767jetz]

Why don't you mind your own UAL/CO business? This conflict doesn't affect you, or are you concerned that perhaps sometime in the future it will?

Obviously there was much truth in what I said. Funny how some people tell others to go away when they have nothing constructive to say and realize that a light has been shined on their own actions.

 

[nycbusdriver]

FUD[/b]-mongering. Fear, Uncertaintly, and Doubt.

 

[Hate2fly]

I am quite aware of what's going on in my own backyard, since I get involved by attending meetings and voicing my opinions to my LEC. Concern is not the right word. Optimism, on BOTH sides, is more appropriate. Yes, it's about 1450 pilots, of which about 1000 were active. The rest were on other leaves already such as medical or military or voluntary furlough. Unless it can be proven that those furloughs and the parking of the entire 737 fleet was done SPECIFICALLY to make the second attempt at a merger with CO happen, then most likely the furloughs wills go behind all all pilots on both sides.

The merger committee has already stated that furloughs are not historically treated as active employees in integrations, with one or two very rare and obscure exceptions like a merger that happened many years ago between two airlines in Canada. Interestingly, if Continental adopted United work rules and nothing else changed, the combined airline would instantly need 800 more pilots to operate what they have today. I wonder if east or west ever considered that? I'd say instantly bringing back 800 of the 1000 pilots overnight would be quite a large benefit to our furloughed pilots. Not to mention they would be coming back to a much better paying contract on top of that.

Additionally, the MEC and merger committees have been very clear in stating that while there is a huge upside to all of us in this merger, it is most certainly NOT about repairing any perceived damage to our careers from the past. There will be no snap backs to contract 2000 or restoration of pensions.

As for widebodies, it's about 4 to 1. Everyone at CAL & UAL has alot to lose. We also have alot to gain by directing our combined attention to the company and the Joint CBA. I guarantee you that there will not be a civil war over seniority. I had the opportunity to meet with some CAL counterparts at a council meeting last week. They are very committed to working through the seniority integration process, and then putting it behind us and moving forward together. DL & US were mentioned continuously throughout the meeting as examples of the right and wrong way to move forward.

767,

I have just a couple of questions for you.

Have you ever been through a merger before?

If so, was it a legacy carrier?

You seem fairly young.......I am assuming you are in your early 30's. I am not busting on you for your age because I was hired at Eastern at a young age. Just curious. I know that you have said you have young children......


Hate

 

[luvn737s]

Now and only now in defeat you want to leave this all behind and move on.

Do you understand the difference between unripe and repudiation of the case? Nothing has been defeated, only delayed. Why didn't the 9th make any statements supporting the DOH stance or the shell game the USAPA founders thought would vaccinate them from the Nic award.

Those who haven't become emotionally wedded to USAPA and their cause at all expense are ready to replace them.

Why aren't you? What do you stand to gain personaly from USAPA's continued fleecing of the pilot group without producing results.

A bipartisan union could form a solution for the integration independent of Nic or DOH.

USAPA won't.

 

[Pi brat]

Do you understand the difference between unripe and repudiation of the case? Nothing has been defeated, only delayed. Why didn't the 9th make any statements supporting the DOH stance or the shell game the USAPA founders thought would vaccinate them from the Nic award.

Those who haven't become emotionally wedded to USAPA and their cause at all expense are ready to replace them.

Why aren't you? What do you stand to gain personaly from USAPA's continued fleecing of the pilot group without producing results.

A bipartisan union could form a solution for the integration independent of Nic or DOH.

USAPA won't.

But if we pass a contract with a DOH list and the DFR is ripe, you don't just pull the PHX Addington out of the box, it's a whole new trial, right?

 

[LSS]

Do you understand the difference between unripe and repudiation of the case? Nothing has been defeated, only delayed. Why didn't the 9th make any statements supporting the DOH stance or the shell game the USAPA founders thought would vaccinate them from the Nic award.

Those who haven't become emotionally wedded to USAPA and their cause at all expense are ready to replace them.

Why aren't you? What do you stand to gain personaly from USAPA's continued fleecing of the pilot group without producing results.

A bipartisan union could form a solution for the integration independent of Nic or DOH.

USAPA won't.

Bring it on....!

 

[Pi brat]

What word is giving you such trouble? "Cooperatively"?

A new union can be formed if those, both east and west, dissatisfied with USAPA's poor performance and dead-end strategy work together to form a cooperative union from the start. ALPA did no favors for the west and would be a polarizing force on the east, so a new in-house union may be the best option. Of course USAPA will not go quietly (how many dictators ever do?) and it may be that a reperesentation vote that garners no clear majority and results in a temporary period of non-representation take place.

The mandate should be integration that is inclusive and representation that serves all pilots. USAPA has had over 2 years to try that and they refuse to acknowledge that the west deserves any consideration. They have destroyed any chance they have of working with the west.

But I truly believe that given a viable alternative union most pilots would opt to leave the stubbornness behind and move forward.

This is not an option under USAPA.

No, I can be cooperative, it's the same old "you did this blah, blah,blah" that gives me trouble. We know what has been done, let's get on with it. Is this new union just a vague idea or something someone is working on? I know that the west will always have problems with anything named USAPA. I've been told that a card drive for ALPA is coming in the next few months, but I feel that will be a massive failure. Another new union that can come up with some new ideas? Maybe, but USAPA has the momentum right now.

 

[flybynite]

Oh..for Pete's sake!!!

You guys sound like a bunch of children on recess.

Bring it on my foot!!

 

[Freighterguynow]

So in this case it would be OK for an east new hire to be a 4 year captain over a west pilot of more LOS. In fact you would encourage it and sell it as such in order to capture their vote. (Or at least capture their passive compliance in keeping things separate.) Hmmmm... Does this sound rather hypocritical to anyone but me?

In the end, it's about each pilot voting in their own self interest. The reality is we will (probably) not see hiring until age 65 kicks in. An East new hire in 2012 is looking at narrow body skipper in about 3.5 years and wide body in 7 if the ops are separate. Why vote in a new contract and let 1700 West pilots pile in on top of you?

This is stark reality, just like going into a representational election outnumbered 2 - 1 and not budging off the Nic award then crying about ALPA being gone or boycotting the union then bitching no West pilots are on the merger committee. The West needs to get off the entitlement bandwagon and think a LOT more about the downside of their actions.

 

[767jetz]

That's not a fact. That is purely conjecture on your part. It's very likely that a future DFR lawsuit will surface, but it is a HUGE stretch to say that it will prevent them from implementing portions of the contract unrelated to the DFR.

I haven't seen the acronym used here for a long time, but what you are saying is simply FUD-mongering. Fear, Uncertaintly, and Doubt.

Excuse me, but I don't believe that was my post you are quoting. Care to correct yourself please?