US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[767jetz]

767,

I have just a couple of questions for you.

Have you ever been through a merger before?

If so, was it a legacy carrier?

You seem fairly young.......I am assuming you are in your early 30's. I am not busting on you for your age because I was hired at Eastern at a young age. Just curious. I know that you have said you have young children......


Hate

Hate,
I don't know what the relevance of your questions is, but I'll answer them anyway.

I have been involved with mergers before, not in the aviation industry, not with labor unions involved, and not being on the labor side of things.

As you remember US and UA were very close to a merger in 2001. I attended every meeting and road show. I know very well what the west is up against wrt the pilots who control USAir's union, whatever name it currently has. (Note, I'm not saying it reflects the attitude of the everyone, but being as they are in control, it might as well be.)

I am also a former TWA pilot who left long before they TWA/AA merger. However I have many friends who stayed and are currently furloughed AA pilots.

You are a good 10 years off on your assumption. Early 40's would be more accurate. And yes, 2 daughters, 19 months and 3 1/2 months.

Now that I've answered, is there a point to your questions?

 

[luvn737s]

But if we pass a contract with a DOH list and the DFR is ripe, you don't just pull the PHX Addington out of the box, it's a whole new trial, right?

A new lawsuit would be filed to protect one side's interests. This could be forestalled if both sides equally represented developed the C&BL's and the merger integration methodology in advance. The personalities involved in USAPA leadership who have not cultivated a good working relationship with management would be removed from the process and it is quite possible that management would welcome the opportunity to work with a more cooperative group motivated by progress rather than vandetta.

This is not to say that to say that cooperation means capitulation. Management is expected to be tough negotiators, but they would be facing a group that had bipartisan support and who would not need to trade away gains in other areas just to secure DOH that is required by their constitution.

 

[nic4us]

Hmmmm ... kinda like the West guys saying "don't come to PHX" in the beginning. Now it's "don't lock US in PHX".

The economic realities are completely different today than they were when this merger was consummated. Likewise, the seniority list has changed dynamics (with recalls/furloughs etc) as well. I don't think we will find an answer in either position (East OR West). Time for something new IMO.

Driver B)

Who were you talking to that said "don't come to PHX?"

I have always been of the opinion that any pilot who wants to move should be allowed to excersize their Nic seniority any where within the system.

 

[cleardirect]

In the end, it's about each pilot voting in their own self interest. The reality is we will (probably) not see hiring until age 65 kicks in. An East new hire in 2012 is looking at narrow body skipper in about 3.5 years and wide body in 7 if the ops are separate. Why vote in a new contract and let 1700 West pilots pile in on top of you?

This is stark reality, just like going into a representational election outnumbered 2 - 1 and not budging off the Nic award then crying about ALPA being gone or boycotting the union then bitching no West pilots are on the merger committee. The West needs to get off the entitlement bandwagon and think a LOT more about the downside of their actions.

Talk about situational ethics.

You guys are the same ones screaming about standing in line right.

So someone hired in 2012 now should be senior to someone who has a job today. That the west would come piling in on top of them. so now it is OK to be a 3.5 year captain on the east but the west 7 tear captains are somehow not worthy.

What do you guy care if we have an "entitlement" attitude or not? You are the majority you all keep saying. You can do whatever you want right. The west can not stop or change a thing. so what downside do you think that we have by opposing or agreeing? None of it matters the east majority is going to do what you want.

BTW you had better check your math. About 250 retirements per year not all of them from the left seat. 1500 f/O's that is 6 years to junior captain. Not 3.5 and 7 years to WB, dream on. Beside if I were an east guy that would piss me off to no end. Wait around 30 years to upgrade and some punk comes in a does it in 7.Oh that's right you guys are angry because it happened at AWA.

 

[nic4us]

The delay was mainly caused by the West pilots refusing to join USAPA or acknowledge them. .....

You brought a frivolous DFR suit against USAPA and finally lost in court.

All along complaining that USAPA was working too slowly. Now and only now in defeat you want to leave this all behind and move on.

Lets be crystal clear here.

The delay started when the east had their meldown over the Nic, stormed Herndon and left the negotiatiing table. Not when the West refused to join the fake union with a contitutional mandate to inflict a DFR against them.

Our suit is hardly "frivolous" and is actually far from over or "lost".

 

[Al Legheny]

Lets be crystal clear here.

The delay started when the east had their meldown over the Nic, stormed Herndon and left the negotiatiing table. Not when the West refused to join the fake union with a contitutional mandate to inflict a DFR against them.

Our suit is hardly "frivolous" and is actually far from over or "lost".

Hmmmm? I would appear that the 9th circuit doesn't agree with that assessment.

8008 ADDINGTON v. US AIRLINE PILOTS ASSOC.

2 Plaintiffs’ alleged hardship cannot instead be premised on any delay caused by USAPA in reaching a single CBA. As the district court noted, Plaintiffs abandoned their claim that USAPA is intentionally delaying negotiation of a CBA. Addington, 2009 WL 2169164, at *22 (“During discovery, Plaintiffs retreated from any notion of deliberate delay on the part
of USAPA.”). The dissent’s assertion that “the absence of a CBA is itself powerful evidence of a DFR violation,” Diss. op. at 8015, is therefore misplaced. Although absence of a CBA might be evidence of a DFR violation, if the violation were based on deliberate delay by the union, it is not evidence of a union’s improper preference of one seniority system over
another. As demonstrated by ALPA’s similar difficulties in reaching a CBA, the pilot groups, and individual pilots with their ratification/nonratification powers, are the major contributors to the absence of a CBA in these circumstances.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Do you understand the difference between unripe and repudiation of the case? Nothing has been defeated, only delayed. Why didn't the 9th make any statements supporting the DOH stance or the shell game the USAPA founders thought would vaccinate them from the Nic award.

Those who haven't become emotionally wedded to USAPA and their cause at all expense are ready to replace them.

Why aren't you? What do you stand to gain personaly from USAPA's continued fleecing of the pilot group without producing results.

A bipartisan union could form a solution for the integration independent of Nic or DOH.

USAPA won't.
[/quote MAYBE, the first question should have been asked by DR. JACOBY, sidekick KELLY, and WAKE , HECK, the 9th circuit had to explain it to them, and when they asked again(EN BANC) I think the reply was, " If ya didn't get it the first time after 2 MILL, YOU NEVER WILL!" MM! This is a bipartisan UNION, pay your dues, vote and help stop the support of those who want it's demise!

 

[nic4us]

This is a bipartisan UNION, pay your dues, vote and help stop the support of those who want it's demise!

MM,

You got all that out of the 9th's opinion?

Funny, all I read was "for the foregoing reasons, we hold plaintiff's DFR claim is not ripe; therefore the case is remanded, to the district court with directions that the action be dismissed. No cost to either side.

Your fake union has a foundation of discrimination. No vote necessary.

 

[Pi brat]

Your fake union

The fake union handed you your XXX, I wonder what a real one could do.

 

[nic4us]

The fake union handed you your XXX, I wonder what a real one could do.

I would imagine, they could protect it.

 

[Hate2fly]

Hate,
I don't know what the relevance of your questions is, but I'll answer them anyway.

I have been involved with mergers before, not in the aviation industry, not with labor unions involved, and not being on the labor side of things.

As you remember US and UA were very close to a merger in 2001. I attended every meeting and road show. I know very well what the west is up against wrt the pilots who control USAir's union, whatever name it currently has. (Note, I'm not saying it reflects the attitude of the everyone, but being as they are in control, it might as well be.)

I am also a former TWA pilot who left long before they TWA/AA merger. However I have many friends who stayed and are currently furloughed AA pilots.

You are a good 10 years off on your assumption. Early 40's would be more accurate. And yes, 2 daughters, 19 months and 3 1/2 months.

Now that I've answered, is there a point to your questions?

767,

Until you go through a major airline merger yourself, which you are about to do.............I personally don't think you really understand what is going to happen to your airline career. CO/UAL when you finally marry each other will open your eyes wide open. The DL boys had about 2500 guys take the early out and run before the bankruptcy nailed the retirement. So, I wouldn't compare yourself with the DL/NWA pilots. Both CO and UAL average age is 49ish......with numbers like that you will be in the right seat for a long time.

Good luck with your first big airline merger........your eyes will be opened when it's all finished.

Hate
3 time big airline merger club member

 

[767jetz]

767,

Until you go through a major airline merger yourself, which you are about to do.............I personally don't think you really understand what is going to happen to your airline career. CO/UAL when you finally marry each other will open your eyes wide open. The DL boys had about 2500 guys take the early out and run before the bankruptcy nailed the retirement. So, I wouldn't compare yourself with the DL/NWA pilots. Both CO and UAL average age is 49ish......with numbers like that you will be in the right seat for a long time.

Good luck with your first big airline merger........your eyes will be opened when it's all finished.

Hate
3 time big airline merger club member

I personally don't think you know what you're talking about. And you still didn't answer my question, which was to ask what the point of your previous questions were. Are you implying that one must go through a merger to have an understanding of one? Or perhaps must be a certain age? That one can't learn by studying the successes and failures of others? That UAL's experience from the 2001 merger attempt with USAir didn't clearly predict what the west was up against? You seem to wear your 3 previous mergers like some kind of badge of honor. Perhaps it is more a testament to poor career choices. Have you always lived your entire life based on the false assumption that the past always equals the future? How's that working out for ya?

FYI, I've seen the data on UA and CO retirements. Both follow the same curve for about 5 years once 65 kicks in. 200-300 per year EACH. CO continues at that rate for a long time. From 5-10 years UA's start accelerating. Moving out to 10 years UA's is at about 500+ per year. Throw in CO pilot's frozen pension, any early out options negotiated going forward, capturing any RJ flying over 70 seats, plus the previously mentioned work rule adjustments for CO, and additional international routes already being planned, and advancement will be starting before next summer.

Fortunately for me, I will be able to come back here by early 2011 to tell you "I told you so" since this thing is on the fast track, just like DL/NWA was. There will be a Joint CBA by years end (maybe as late as spring) and seniority integration shortly after. So we'll be enjoying the recovery that the rest of the industry enjoys, while you are still stuck in litigation with the prospect of retiring under bankruptcy era wages and work rules.

And you think MY eyes need to be opened. That's hysterical!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

MM,

You got all that out of the 9th's opinion?

Funny, all I read was "for the foregoing reasons, we hold plaintiff's DFR claim is not ripe; therefore the case is remanded, to the district court with directions that the action be dismissed. No cost to either side.

Your fake union has a foundation of discrimination. No vote necessary.

Well, YOU paid for both sides so hey, So much for CLEARY in handcuffs etc, besides for 2mill+ your attorneys hp-fa , your correct, NO INJUNCTION, NO DAMAGES! You think you could hire good legal help but hey, spend it freely!MM!

 

[Hate2fly]

I personally don't think you know what you're talking about. And you still didn't answer my question, which was to ask what the point of your previous questions were. Are you implying that one must go through a merger to have an understanding of one? Or perhaps must be a certain age? That one can't learn by studying the successes and failures of others? That UAL's experience from the 2001 merger attempt with USAir didn't clearly predict what the west was up against? You seem to wear your 3 previous mergers like some kind of badge of honor. Perhaps it is more a testament to poor career choices. Have you always lived your entire life based on the false assumption that the past always equals the future? How's that working out for ya?

FYI, I've seen the data on UA and CO retirements. Both follow the same curve for about 5 years once 65 kicks in. 200-300 per year EACH. CO continues at that rate for a long time. From 5-10 years UA's start accelerating. Moving out to 10 years UA's is at about 500+ per year. Throw in CO pilot's frozen pension, any early out options negotiated going forward, capturing any RJ flying over 70 seats, plus the previously mentioned work rule adjustments for CO, and additional international routes already being planned, and advancement will be starting before next summer.

Fortunately for me, I will be able to come back here by early 2011 to tell you "I told you so" since this thing is on the fast track, just like DL/NWA was. There will be a Joint CBA by years end (maybe as late as spring) and seniority integration shortly after. So we'll be enjoying the recovery that the rest of the industry enjoys, while you are still stuck in litigation with the prospect of retiring under bankruptcy era wages and work rules.

And you think MY eyes need to be opened. That's hysterical!

767,

Do us all a favor come back in early 2011 and tell us how great things are working out for you with your new merged airline. Guys like you that got hired by TWA are definately the cream of the crop! A combined CO/UAL would never think of parking aircraft once the merger is complete. I am sure the growth will be wild. Dream on my good man!

Hate
Wish I could have worked for UAL or TWA.........what a joke!

 

[luvn737s]

Hate-
I'd imagine anyone who has had the pleasure of knowing you is glad things have worked out for you the way they have.