US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Freighterguynow]

BTW you had better check your math. About 250 retirements per year not all of them from the left seat. 1500 f/O's that is 6 years to junior captain. Not 3.5 and 7 years to WB, dream on.

Well Clear, all I can say at this point is we've tried (yet again) to warn you.

 

[Hate2fly]

Hate-
I'd imagine anyone who has had the pleasure of knowing you is glad things have worked out for you the way they have.

luvn,

Another big misunderstanding from the westies is that all east pilots are miserable! Most of us have had a wonderful run in this business. We have raised our families and have enjoyed a pretty good life style. Could things have been better? Sure! Unfortunately, we didn't get to choose our management teams. You may have noticed how the senior pilots have supported the junior pilots in the east! We have shared the same cockpits for decades......something the westies have never understood. The senior east pilots took the leadership roll in forming the new union. Why? Because it was the right thing to do. The geniuses in Herndon had rolled over the east group one to many times. The senior east pilots stood shoulder to shoulder that day in Herndon and ALPA just like the west never understood what was about to happen to them. The nic was the final straw that broke the camels back.

Seperate operations has been wonderful for the east. Everyone back here is happy just the way it is. Time to get on the big bus! There are always exceptions like our boy trader and PS. Even some of the original ALPA supporters are convinced USAPA has been the right choice. The west has made some fatal mistakes because of your greed. J. Freund tried to help you guys understand that this was an internal union process. This was not a federally mandated arbitration. ALPA's internal process generated a seniority proposal which the company is not required to accept.

Keep the donations coming!

Hate

 

[cleardirect]

luvn,

Another big misunderstanding from the westies is that all east pilots are miserable! Most of us have had a wonderful run in this business. We have raised our families and have enjoyed a pretty good life style. Could things have been better? Sure! Unfortunately, we didn't get to choose our management teams. You may have noticed how the senior pilots have supported the junior pilots in the east! We have shared the same cockpits for decades......something the westies have never understood. The senior east pilots took the leadership roll in forming the new union. Why? Because it was the right thing to do. The geniuses in Herndon had rolled over the east group one to many times. The senior east pilots stood shoulder to shoulder that day in Herndon and ALPA just like the west never understood what was about to happen to them. The nic was the final straw that broke the camels back.

Seperate operations has been wonderful for the east. Everyone back here is happy just the way it is. Time to get on the big bus! There are always exceptions like our boy trader and PS. Even some of the original ALPA supporters are convinced USAPA was has been the right choice. The west has made some fatal mistakes because of your greed. J. Freund tried to help you guys understand that this was an internal union process. This was not a federally mandated arbitration. ALPA's internal process generated a seniority proposal which the company is not required to accept.

Keep the donations coming!

Hate

Yes but the company did accept the seniority list. You have seen the letter from Parker right? You did read the transcripts that Heminway admitted that the Nicooau was the only seniority list that the company acknowledges right? So your argument is no good anymore.

Is the company required to accept any made up list that usapa hands them? Did the last usapa list meet the 5 company requirements?

 

[cleardirect]

Well Clear, all I can say at this point is we've tried (yet again) to warn you.

So are you telling me my numbers are wrong. That the east does not have 250 per year retirements?

In order for a new hire in the east to make captain in 3. 5 year the east has to attrite 430 per year. Why do you think that is a valid number? Please show your work not just some fantasy. Got any facts?

The spreadsheet I have shows east retirements.

2012 9
2013 150
2014 214
2015 184
2016 230
2017 239
2018 259
2019 259
Total 1544 So it takes until 2019 for the bottom F/O to reach captain. A new hire in 2012 will not upgrade just on attrition for 8 years. If you add in 10%of the retirements for MED and other it is only 151 so half a year earlier. Exactly how is it you think someone will upgrade in 3.5 year and 7 years to the WB?

Keep in mind also what is the other tear that is shed all the time? F/O’s will never upgrade. So by your own admission some about 30-40% will come out of the RIGHT seat. How does that help that 3.5 year new hire upgrade again? Even if it is 30% F/O’s that means after 8 year it is only 1100 captains retired. Still 400 away from upgrade. So add another 2 years. Unless that whole whine about F/O’s never upgrading is not true.

2020 244
2021 249
2022 205
2023 220
2024 162
2025 171
2026124
2027 111
2028 81
2029 55
2030 41
Total after 18 years 3207

10 years from now about half of the east will be gone. At the end of 2030 all current east pilots should be off the property. Is the east willing to wait 10 years at LOA 93 wages? Why would anyone want to get hired at US Air at the current wages knowing that it will still take 8 years to upgrade to make $125 per hour?

The east pilots had better start to look at facts and start to figure out that your actions are hurting yourselves and what you take as truth is nothing more that crew room myth.

P.S. My mistake the east does not average 250 retirements per year it is 203 over the next 10 years. And 194 over the next 15 years.

 

[Hate2fly]

Yes but the company did accept the seniority list. You have seen the letter from Parker right? You did read the transcripts that Heminway admitted that the Nicooau was the only seniority list that the company acknowledges right? So your argument is no good anymore.

Is the company required to accept any made up list that usapa hands them? Did the last usapa list meet the 5 company requirements?

clear,

The company is not required to accept any list. It is all negotiable..........just like crew meals!

USAPA when the time comes will present a DOH list with conditions and restrictions to protect all pilots.

The company will accept the DOH list and then you guys will get your chance to litigate once again. Go for it!

Hate

 

[cleardirect]

clear,

The company is not required to accept any list. It is all negotiable..........just like crew meals!

USAPA when the time comes will present a DOH list with conditions and restrictions to protect all pilots.

The company will accept the DOH list and then you guys will get your chance to litigate once again. Go for it!

Hate

You guys all seem to skip over the reason WHY Parker would accept a DOH list? Explain.

As far as DOH and C&R that protect ALL pilots. There is not a C&R in the world that would protect the west using DOH. Stop trying to fool yourself.

Just a couple examples. If the company furloughs 25% all C&R are removed. Where is the west protection? A fence locking the west into PHX what if the company closes PHX and we are forced into an east base. No protections at all. In the next merger can usapa make sure any C&R are still there? During the next merger how does PHX capture any benefit by being locked in PHX. Merging the seniority list by DOH places 85% of the west below furloughed east pilots then below most of the other airlines F/O's.

So you can stop fooling yourself that any C&R are there to protect ALL pilots not just east pilots.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

You guys all seem to ship over the reason WHY Parker would accept a DOH list? Explain.

As far as DOH and C&R that protect ALL pilots. There is not a C&R in the world that would protect the west using DOH. Stop trying to fool yourself.

Just a couple examples. If the company furloughs 25% all C&R are removed. Where is the west protection? A fence locking the west into PHX what if the company closes PHX and we are forced into an east base. No protections at all. In the next merger can usapa make sure any C&R are still there? During the next merger how does PHX capture any benefit by being locked in PHX. Merging the seniority list by DOH places 85% of the west below furloughed east pilots then below most of the other airlines F/O's.

So you can stop fooling yourself that any C&R are there to protect ALL pilots not just east pilots.

When the company closes PHX( not if when)your answer is to furlough pilots hired after their AWE counterparts and give EAST JOBS to them! Talk about stop fooling oneself, Where is all this WEST BRAVADO, Waiting for that big PHX expansion!MM! All those valuable assets, clear and direct!

 

[cleardirect]

When the company closes PHX( not if when)your answer is to furlough pilots hired after their AWE counterparts and give EAST JOBS to them! Talk about stop fooling oneself, Where is all this WEST BRAVADO, Waiting for that big PHX expansion!MM! All those valuable assets, clear and direct!

I don't think that PHX will close but I am relying on the east view of the world.

If the east thinks that PHX will close where is our protection? Looks like a clear DFR to me. The east has reasonable knowledge that the west will be harmed but do nothing to protect the west. In fact write C&R that harm the west in that event.

So your answer is to furlough west captains before east pilots that were furloughed. Let's take that into court and let a jury of people look at that.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Do you understand the difference between unripe and repudiation of the case? Nothing has been defeated, only delayed. Why didn't the 9th make any statements supporting the DOH stance or the shell game the USAPA founders thought would vaccinate them from the Nic award.

Those who haven't become emotionally wedded to USAPA and their cause at all expense are ready to replace them.

Why aren't you? What do you stand to gain personaly from USAPA's continued fleecing of the pilot group without producing results.

A bipartisan union could form a solution for the integration independent of Nic or DOH.

USAPA won't.

We fully understand that the decision by the 9th does not bear on the merits of the Addington case. But that fact goes both ways. Some of the west poster here think that the words "unquestionably ripe" mean things other than "unquestionably ripe."

We on the east are well aware that the 9th decision is merely a delay. We fully expect a DFR suit to be filed once we have a new contract.

We on the east say, "Bring it on." We also advise, "Bring your checkbooks."

 

[cleardirect]

We fully understand that the decision by the 9th does not bear on the merits of the Addington case. But that fact goes both ways. Some of the west poster here think that the words "unquestionably ripe" mean things other than "unquestionably ripe."

We on the east are well aware that the 9th decision is merely a delay. We fully expect a DFR suit to be filed once we have a new contract.

We on the east say, "Bring it on." We also advise, "Bring your checkbooks."

Where is that contract? 27 months and counting. What is usapa doing?

Now I have to ask. If you know that a law suit is going to be filed then you know that you are doing something wrong. why would you continue doing bad acts?

We will bring the checkbook not a problem. But so will usapa. They spent $3 million last time how much are you going to spend the next time?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Excuse me, but I don't believe that was my post you are quoting. Care to correct yourself please?

My apologies. It was from the closed thread and I grabbed your name by mistake. The quote was actually from Luvn737s.

 

[767jetz]

767,
Guys like you that got hired by TWA are definately the cream of the crop!

Thanks for finally recognizing the truth!

A combined CO/UAL would never think of parking aircraft once the merger is complete. I am sure the growth will be wild. Dream on my good man!

Let's see... Kuwait, Moscow, Bahrain, Zurich and Accra... All new destinations. And that's before the merger is complete.

Also, did you happen to look at the combined route structure. Almost no overlap with the exception of a some hub to hub flying and Cleveland. What's the point of parking airplanes when there's no overlap? That's what's killed you and others in previous mergers. The overlap makes much of the flying redundant. Not so in a UA/CO merger.

Is DL parking airplanes and furloughing? Oh, wait... they are actually hiring.

Maybe you should take your head out of... the sand.

Looking forward to talking about this with you again next year.

 

[767jetz]

My apologies. It was from the closed thread and I grabbed your name by mistake. The quote was actually from Luvn737s.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Where is that contract? 27 months and counting. What is usapa doing?

Now I have to ask. If you know that a law suit is going to be filed then you know that you are doing something wrong. why would you continue doing bad acts?

We will bring the checkbook not a problem. But so will usapa. They spent $3 million last time how much are you going to spend the next time?

USAPA is working toward a new contract at the pace demanded by the federal mediator brought in at the request of the company and the union. USAPA has no control over the schedule. Reread the first sentence, and then understand it,.

We know a lawsuit will be filed simply because you are all saying that a lawsuit will be filed. Filing a lawsuit does not mean anyone is doing anything wrong. It means ONE party thinks the other party is doing something wrong. USAPA will proceed with what it thinks is right, and then let the chips fall where they may.

USAPA spent $3 million. How much of that have the westies paid? (Hint: a large chunk of it.) Thanks for the help! We on the east certainly appreciate your spending your money to help USAPA defeat your frivolous DFR. And we will appreciate it during the next round of litigation. Make sure you have enough check in that checkbook to pay both sides.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Please show your work not just some fantasy. Got any facts?

The spreadsheet I have shows east retirements.

2012 9
2013 150
2014 214
2015 184
2016 230
2017 239
2018 259
2019 259
Total 1544 So it takes until 2019 for the bottom F/O to reach captain.

We have 2540 line pilots in September. Bottom wide body CA 946. New hire 2541 - 1544 = 997 in 7 years

Even under a worst case (every pilot stays to age 65) situation.