US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[LSS]

I think you are the one blinded because the crux of the argument for a new union is that it subverts the Nic by including the west as equal participants in crafting a new integration methodology free from the DOH requirement in USAPA's C&BL's and their scorched earth relationship with the west. This "reset" if you will, completely negates any DFR by the virtue of equal participation in crafting the solution.

The replacement union would run on a platform of principals mirroring it's eventual C&BL's and dedicated to the two separate tasks of initial integration and the traditional role of a union and their role of supporting the needs of the US pilots.

The west and east would get to elect Constitutional Congress reps who would craft a C&BL's with equal input. They would then craft a integration methodology which would require independent ratification on both sides. With this in hand they would then turn to negotiating the remaining sections of the CBA with the company which would then be sent out for independent ratification. Once the CBA has passed, elections would be held to staff the pilot representitive positions. All further votes going forward would be the combined group.

Remember, there was no west participation in crafting USAPA's C&BL's. They simply satisfied themselves knowing they had sufficient numbers to pass whatever they wanted. Remember, they needed no plan B. This was a crucial error.

A replacement union would have the key advantage of unity before it ever started. There will certainly be some dissenters as it's impossible to please 100% of the people 100% of the time. But the percentage of dissenters and no-participants will likely be in the more menegeable single-digit percentages, rather than the 25-30% USAPA has cultivated.

USAPA relies on scapegoats and boogeymen to divert attention from their inability to garner signifiacant unity among the people who disagree with them. The folks who would form the core of the leadership of this union would be those who have, despite their differences, developed working relationships with their opposite-coast counterparts. They see the futility in continuing on USAPA's chosen path and no longer wish to be accomplices to Cleary's false pride-soaked agenda. He wins only when everyone else loses.

There are sufficient pilots out there who reject this and want to use their experience, common sense and the fraternity they always used associate with their profession, to move forward and leave this nightmare behind.

Join them.

Total unadulterated BS... The same tiresome complaints you have today, would be no different if things didn't go "your" way

 

[flybynite]

Oh hello again.....


While you've been arguing, I thought you might want to know the East Flight Attendants have negotiated better rigs than what we have now.

And as far as I know.....because of our "me too" clause.. our pilots get it too. And that may mean west pilots as well.......if they get on board.......

We already have better rigs than the West.......And they need to get off their high horse about more than a few things.

Just my opinion....

 

[luvn737s]

Make sure your grandchildren tell their grandchildren what a trip rig is. No guarantees that it will be resolved by then, though. But hey you've lived with the east long enough t know how they are.

 

[Metroyet]

Total unadulterated BS... The same tiresome complaints you have today, would be no different if things didn't go "your" way

Oh I know. Those silly tiresome complaints. I mean really. Who submits to Binding Arbitration, plays by all the rules, signs a Transition Agreement with their Employer and Colleagues and actually expects any of them to play by the rules? Due process is for suckers. We all know those whom control the Mob is who makes the rules in this country right?

I'm so sick of hearing victims complain about crime too.

 

[nic4us]

3 million, 6 million, 9 million, 12 million....whatever it takes.
Have a nice day.

We will start off with court procedure for 3 million Alex.

"This procedure means an order from a higher court , directing a lower court to send the record in a given case for review".

Ummm....What is certiorari?

ding..ding..ding..

I'll take crazy pet names for a thousand!

 

[luvn737s]

Total unadulterated BS... The same tiresome complaints you have today, would be no different if things didn't go "your" way

On what basis would either side have a complaint? They are equal partners in crafting a solution from the get-go. It could reach an impasse, but that certainly sells short the lessons learned from the past 2+ years.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

On what basis would either side have a complaint? They are equal partners in crafting a solution from the get-go. It could reach an impasse, but that certainly sells short the lessons learned from the past 2+ years.

I'll TAKE LEAVE IT TO ALPA FOR 500 ALEX!! THAT WOULD BE , "WHAT WAS WYE RIVER?" WOW THE DAILY DOUBLE! MM!

 

[BoeingBoy]

And as far as I know.....because of our "me too" clause.. our pilots get it too. And that may mean west pilots as well.......if they get on board.......Just my opinion....

The "me too" is not a two-way street - the F/A's have it because it's in the F/A's contract. It's not in the pilot's contract (at least not the East pilot's contract) so they don't automatically get the "me too".

Ji

 

[cleardirect]

Oh hello again.....


While you've been arguing, I thought you might want to know the East Flight Attendants have negotiated better rigs than what we have now.

And as far as I know.....because of our "me too" clause.. our pilots get it too. And that may mean west pilots as well.......if they get on board.......

We already have better rigs than the West.......And they need to get off their high horse about more than a few things.

Just my opinion....

Here is the west trip rig and duty rig. Are you saying that in your next contract you have will have better rigs than what we have now? I think BB is right we do not have a "me too" clause. The F/A fly separate schedules so your rigs don't bother the pilots at all. The west F/A's can do a PHX-MCO, PHX-JFK turn where the pilots can not.

As far as your "high horse" comment. A matter of opinion which side is being the problem. I hear the F/A love fest is not all peaches and cream either. If you would just accept what the west F/A's want and stop being obstructionist all would be great. Isn't that what you are telling the west pilots?

C. DUTY RIG
A Pilot shall receive one hour (1:00) of pay and credit
for each two hours (2:00) during a duty period.

D. TRIP RIG
A Pilot shall receive one hour (1:00) of pay and credit
for each three hours and forty-five minutes (3:45) that
the Pilot is scheduled to be, or actually remains, away
from the Pilot’s domicile.

E. LONG RATE RIG
For any scheduled, rescheduled or rerouted pairing
that contains a scheduled layover of twenty-four hours
(24:00) or greater, each scheduled layover period of
twenty-four hours (24:00) shall be considered a duty
period.

In the west contract a duty period is worth 5:15. Min 4 day pairing 21:00. Did the F/A's agree to something better than that?

 

[Freighterguynow]

Did your numbers not work for you so you decided to change the game to fit your desired result?? Reality is a great place to live, try it sometime. But like I said before got any facts?

Uh huh. The East seniority list and bids are on Wings and the USAPA site - you really should sit down and look at them.

 

[luvn737s]

I'll TAKE LEAVE IT TO ALPA FOR 500 ALEX!! THAT WOULD BE , "WHAT WAS WYE RIVER?" WOW THE DAILY DOUBLE! MM!

I hear Ginko is great for enhancing memory, but until you get out to get some, here's a little help.

Wye River was an attempt (futile) for ALPA to strongarm the west into ceding the Nicolau award and prevent AAA pilots from bolting from ALPA. Of course the die had been cast for USAPA and would not (we are told from the ardent USAPA supporters) have stopped USAPA from being birthed even if Nicolau had been torn up at Wye River. Additionally, USAPA's C&BL's would still have been crafted without west input (done prior to the election) so who knows what other disciminatory provisions of the C&BL's could have been included if ALPA had been able to hand the east pilot's a loaded stapler with apologies for wasting their time going through the merger policy.

Sounds like a script straight out of the Sopranos, except the mob usually profits wildly from their corruption and USAPA sits and spins it's wheels.

A new union sheds the baggage of the old (or, as someone has not so subtly put it, "let the weasle out of the bag") and starts the process over as wiser and more motivated participants who know the pitfalls that stubbornness holds and who are committed to getting past the integration and onto the running of a real pilot's union.

I invite anyone to sell me on how USAPA will produce anything different from what has been done and seen so far. The same players will continue to do the same thing until their leverage (legal and/or numeral) diminishes. A new union leverages the experience and common sense of the pilots to compromise where necessary to build consensus and come to a conclusion to the integration. After that, it will probably look similar to the USAPA of today, without the pervasive acrimony that Cleary cultivates.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Of course the die had been cast for USAPA and would not (we are told from the ardent USAPA supporters) have stopped USAPA from being birthed even if Nicolau had been torn up at Wye River.

Nope, the thing that got USAPA the votes was Prater putting the PHL lec in the cornfield - people went radioactive after that one. If Wye River had produced a fence on the wide bodies, attrition and some furlough protection the Nic would've passed. The same fences we have, by the way, under separate ops so stonewalling got you exactly nothing.

 

[luvn737s]

Nope, the thing that got USAPA the votes was Prater putting the PHL lec in the cornfield - people went radioactive after that one.

I've gotta raise a flag with Black Swan's initials on it on that one. Prater should have put the AAA MEC in receivership when they pulled out of joint negotiations. That he allowed them to continue to try and appease the USAPA insiders was a terrible mistake. It's probably the thing that most west pilots fault Prater for and for which they will likely never forgive him.

 

[cleardirect]

Nope, the thing that got USAPA the votes was Prater putting the PHL lec in the cornfield - people went radioactive after that one. If Wye River had produced a fence on the wide bodies, attrition and some furlough protection the Nic would've passed. The same fences we have, by the way, under separate ops so stonewalling got you exactly nothing.

So tell us. You all scream that the west should have compromised at Wye river. Many here seem to be Wye river experts with inside knowledge. A compromise implies that both sides give up something for the joint benefit.

What was the east willing to give the west beyond the Nicolau award at Wye river?

All we hear is you wanted furlough protection, wide body protection, fence protection. What was the west going to get out of this deal beside giving?

What was the east willing to give. How do we know that the east would have lived up to that deal? If the west had agreed to some deal and usapa still got voted in. would usapa have lived up to that deal or would we hear the same thing that we hear now. That was ALPA it does not apply to us.

We hear it now. We need to compromise or find middle ground. How is the east going to move into that middle ground. Because maybe you don’t know this but compromise is not just one side giving and the other side taking.

 

[A320 Driver]

Has this forum become a dumping ground for bad history lessons?

FINGER POINTING GETS US NOTHING!!!!!

What about some ideas we can carry forward to break the deadlock and get us a contract! Enough NIC and DOH already.

Driver B)