US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

Has this forum become a dumping ground for bad history lessons?

FINGER POINTING GETS US NOTHING!!!!!

What about some ideas we can carry forward to break the deadlock and get us a contract! Enough NIC and DOH already.

Driver B)

How about usapa gets the other 29 section done.

 

[A320 Driver]

How about usapa gets the other 29 section done.

Fine with ME...

 

[flybynite]

Here is the west trip rig and duty rig. Are you saying that in your next contract you have will have better rigs than what we have now? I think BB is right we do not have a "me too" clause. The F/A fly separate schedules so your rigs don't bother the pilots at all. The west F/A's can do a PHX-MCO, PHX-JFK turn where the pilots can not.

As far as your "high horse" comment. A matter of opinion which side is being the problem. I hear the F/A love fest is not all peaches and cream either. If you would just accept what the west F/A's want and stop being obstructionist all would be great. Isn't that what you are telling the west pilots?



In the west contract a duty period is worth 5:15. Min 4 day pairing 21:00. Did the F/A's agree to something better than that?

We currently have 1 for 2 ....I do not know as of yet if an improvement has been made there.
We currently have 1 for 3.5 for trip rig...again we don't know if the improvement was made there either. The union is being coy where this is concerned.
All they said in our latest update was they had made improvements in our rigs.

We fly the same schedules as our pilots and share the same rigs. Your f/a's do not. As you well know. They only get 1 for 4 trip rig so this would be a boon for them.

I'm not sure what you mean about being obstructionist. The f/a's that I talk to from the west don't feel that way at all. They have real issues with their union leadership.... however that is for them to work out. I have no comment there. It's not my business.

Yes you are correct...the west f/a's can do the transcon turns. But that's only because the FAA doesn't think f/a's need the same rest requirements as pilots. Hmm? Yeah right... And the company is pushing them to the limit. Not good for the safety of the cabin or crew. IMO.
We would be forced to do them also if it weren't for the "me-too" clause in our contract.

So I'll repeat what I said...we will have better rigs than what we have now and that includes the west f/a's.

Huge improvement.

 

[cleardirect]

We currently have 1 for 2 ....I do not know as of yet if an improvement has been made there.
We currently have 1 for 3.5 for trip rig...again we don't know if the improvement was made there either. The union is being coy where this is concerned.
All they said in our latest update was they had made improvements in our rigs.

We fly the same schedules as our pilots and share the same rigs. Your f/a's do not. As you well know. They only get 1 for 4 trip rig so this would be a boon for them.

I'm not sure what you mean about being obstructionist. The f/a's that I talk to from the west don't feel that way at all. They have real issues with their union leadership.... however that is for them to work out. I have no comment there. It's not my business.

Yes you are correct...the west f/a's can do the transcon turns. But that's only because the FAA doesn't think f/a's need the same rest requirements as pilots. Hmm? Yeah right... And the company is pushing them to the limit. Not good for the safety of the cabin or crew. IMO.
We would be forced to do them also if it weren't for the "me-too" clause in our contract.

So I'll repeat what I said...we will have better rigs than what we have now and that includes the west f/a's.

Huge improvement.

Good luck getting improvements I hope that you get them.

Your last post implied that the FA’s had better rig than the west pilots and that we needed the east F/A to get us those improvement. But only if we got off our high horse and caved into the east pilots.

My apologies if you were talking about the west F/A’s but this is a pilot thread

 

[flybynite]

Good luck getting improvements I hope that you get them.

Your last post implied that the FA’s had better rig than the west pilots and that we needed the east F/A to get us those improvement. But only if we got off our high horse and caved into the east pilots.

My apologies if you were talking about the west F/A’s but this is a pilot thread

The core of the me-too provisions revolve around duty rigs, rest provisions, duty time limitations and hotel accommodations.

We've improved all of the above in all respects than either group had before.(quote JNC)

So while you're dragging your feet.....we're moving right along. For our betterment.

Wish you were there.

 

[Black Swan]

We currently have 1 for 2 ....I do not know as of yet if an improvement has been made there.
We currently have 1 for 3.5 for trip rig...again we don't know if the improvement was made there either. The union is being coy where this is concerned.
All they said in our latest update was they had made improvements in our rigs.

We fly the same schedules as our pilots and share the same rigs. Your f/a's do not. As you well know. They only get 1 for 4 trip rig so this would be a boon for them.

I'm not sure what you mean about being obstructionist. The f/a's that I talk to from the west don't feel that way at all. They have real issues with their union leadership.... however that is for them to work out. I have no comment there. It's not my business.

Yes you are correct...the west f/a's can do the transcon turns. But that's only because the FAA doesn't think f/a's need the same rest requirements as pilots. Hmm? Yeah right... And the company is pushing them to the limit. Not good for the safety of the cabin or crew. IMO.
We would be forced to do them also if it weren't for the "me-too" clause in our contract.

So I'll repeat what I said...we will have better rigs than what we have now and that includes the west f/a's.

Huge improvement.

When things were getting worse here, I often said the F/A group should switch from a ME TOO clause to NOT US! Good luck. You seem to have good people doing your negotiations.

 

[cleardirect]

The core of the me-too provisions revolve around duty rigs, rest provisions, duty time limitations and hotel accommodations.

We've improved all of the above in all respects than either group had before.(quote JNC)

So while you're dragging your feet.....we're moving right along. For our betterment.

Wish you were there.

Glad to hear that you are moving forward. That is what happens when you have good leadership. What we have with uspaa is poor to no leadership.

 

[luvn737s]

Can the F/A's ratify their contract independent of the pilots? I sure hope so. It's one thing for Cleary to mess with the livelihoods of 5200 pilots, but 15000-some flight attendants shouldn't be held hostage by his ego.

 

[informed]

Here is a replay of your $2,000,000 history lesson West pilots. Note that the b 2, b3, BS, tells you furloughed and junior pilots that they need your money but will not protect you.

Your West leadership turned down no furloughs for west pilots and 757's and 190's slot at Wye river. There would be no West pilots furloughed now if your "leaders would have negotiated this at Wye." But ALPA winked at them and told them not to budge on the nic, they would slip it through without a vote in the middle of the night back then. The birth of USAPA.

Titanium yourself all you want.


Leonidas Update for January 25, 2009

 

[luvn737s]

If Prater was "winking", he would have simply taken the process out of the hands of the east and signed a joint contract (likely a copy of the west contract) without any input from either side. He blinked instead.

Pick another boogeyman.

 

[Black Swan]

If Prater was "winking", he would have simply taken the process out of the hands of the east and signed a joint contract (likely a copy of the west contract) without any input from either side. He blinked instead.

Pick another boogeyman.

Luvn, from where I sit, there is nothing going on but waiting for USAPA to hand the list to the company and it most likely is going to be a DOH list. And the company is actively negotiating with USAPA. What is going to be your reaction when the list gets handed to the company and it is DOH?

 

[767jetz]

Your West leadership turned down no furloughs for west pilots and 757's and 190's slot at Wye river.

Yeah... what would the cost have been to their career? What would the benefit be to allow USAPA years worth of delay, which is exactly what they were hoping for at the time. How about telling the whole story for once, instead of constantly taking small snips here and there that conveniently fit the picture you want to paint.

There would be no West pilots furloughed now if your "leaders would have negotiated this at Wye." But ALPA winked at them and told them not to budge on the nic, they would slip it through without a vote in the middle of the night back then.

More fantasy and conspiracy. Again, how about sticking to the facts. Aren't you guys the ones always claiming that there are no guarantees about what the future holds? Or is that, once again, only valid when it supports your opinion? First of all, there is no way to tell what would have happened with furloughs, or if "no furloughs" could have been attained at Wye River. Second, as I stated above, at what cost? All West pilots being in the right seat or stuck flying RJ's until the east pilots are satisfied that their careers have been sufficiently repaired at the cost of the west? The time for negotiation had come and gone. Or did you forget about the three steps preceding this mess? Here's a reminder... NEGOTIATE; MEDIATE; ARBITRATE.

As for ALPA, I'll remind you that there was no wink to hold firm. Quite the opposite. ALPA wanted the west to capitulate for fear of losing the the east. According to you guys, it wouldn't have made a difference since leaving ALPA was inevitable. So on this the west did the right thing. Here's another reminder... It's been about 2 years since all the predictions of ALPA falling apart once the east leaves. Since then very few tears have been shed and ALPA continues to gain membership on other fronts, while managing just fine without the east. ALPA pilots continue the march to repair the damage done to pilot's careers since in the last 9 years, with significant forward momentum in pattern bargaining during an significant recovery of the industry as a whole. Delta, Northwest, Jazz, Spirit, and others all securing better contracts. How's USAPA doing on that front?

 

[767jetz]

Luvn, from where I sit, there is nothing going on but waiting for USAPA to hand the list to the company and it most likely is going to be a DOH list. And the company is actively negotiating with USAPA. What is going to be your reaction when the list gets handed to the company and it is DOH?

Most likely ????? What happened to SLAM DUNK! NIC IS DEAD! GET OVER IT! ????? You sound less and less sure of yourself.

There will probably be no emotional reaction if USAPA hands a DOH list to the company. That's because it's just one more step in a long process that will continue to play out. So USAPA hands over a new list. Then the company has to show it's hand on what it will do. Then comes the legal challenges and possible injunction preventing any list from being acted upon. Don't fool yourself into thinking that this will be over any time soon.

The time for "reaction" will be when a new contract is in place, seniority is settled, and all legal challenges have ceased. Then we will all know the final outcome. If that day comes and a DOH list stands, I will be one of the first to be here admitting the East was successful, and then move on.

 

[luvn737s]

Luvn, from where I sit, there is nothing going on but waiting for USAPA to hand the list to the company and it most likely is going to be a DOH list. And the company is actively negotiating with USAPA. What is going to be your reaction when the list gets handed to the company and it is DOH?

I thought they handed the DOH list to the company in October 2008 or thereabouts. Does Cleary think Parker misplaced it? It's in the upper left hand drawer under the Chinese takeout menus.

The reaction should be towards Cleary's unwillingness to unify the pilot group, but perpetuates the acrimony at an unacceptably high cost. Hopefully the reaction will be an attention-getting number of cards submitted for a representation vote. Ultimately the reaction should be the replacement of USAPA with a union that can actually craft a working integration methodology and go forward to serve the interest of ALL U.S. pilots.

When Parker sees that the pilots have their (insert favorite Joe Biden expletive) together, then they will have Parker's attention and a working relationship can be forged.

 

[cleardirect]

Here is a replay of your $2,000,000 history lesson West pilots. Note that the b 2, b3, BS, tells you furloughed and junior pilots that they need your money but will not protect you.

Your West leadership turned down no furloughs for west pilots and 757's and 190's slot at Wye river. There would be no West pilots furloughed now if your "leaders would have negotiated this at Wye." But ALPA winked at them and told them not to budge on the nic, they would slip it through without a vote in the middle of the night back then. The birth of USAPA.

Titanium yourself all you want.

What exactly did the west turn down? No furloughs for the west? How was the east going to guarantee no furloughs? So are you saying that if we agreed to something at Wye river there would be 245 east pilots on furlough and no west pilots? How would that have worked using DOH? Did the east offer anything other than DOH/LOS?

Besides using Nicolau the pilots that were furloughed at the time of the merger would have been furloughed again and the pilots that brought a job would still have a job. The Nicolau provided the no furlough without a deal. So nothing there.

The west already holds two other agreements. One an arbitration to 1/3 of the 190 slots. So again we already have that deal it is the east that is keeping us from those. We also have an agreement to 1 of the three 757 airplanes again waiting for the east to get to a joint contract.

So what the east offered at Wye river we already had. The east offered nothing but wanted to TAKE from the west.

The only thing ALPA winked at was the east pretending that ALPA could change the Nicolau.

I asked the question before with no answer. What was the east willing to offer the west at Wye river that we did not have in the Nicolau or the two other agreements. How was the east going to move into the middle ground not just demand from the west?