US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/29- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

Complete bunk, they never testified to any such thing. In fact, they testified that their were two lists and why the furlough was constructed as it was. Resorting to making things up, is an act of desperation. The CEO has stated numerous times publicly that seniority is the pilots deal and that the company won't express an opinion on it and its up to the pilots, its their deal.

Incorrect. You are talking about something else. You are talking about the T/A9 dispute. Third list furloughs. Read the transcripts of the trial.

Yes the company during the Addington trial did testify that they the company had accepted the Nicolau list and that is the only seniority list they acknowledge. The DOH list that usapa passed I heard was left on the table. Besides. If usapa passed over a pay rate of $300 per hour and the company picked it up to take with them. Does that mean that they accepted the rates?

What the company has said is it is a matter of litigation. That litigation has come to en end. Parker can not hide behind that any more he is going to have to make a decision. Will he stick with the Nic as tesified to or will he make usapa pay for seniority?

What leverage does usapa have to get the company to accept DOH? Parker also knows that DOH is number one on the wish list for a contract. How much is the east willing to give up in the contract to get it? Because he will make you pay for it.

 

[Pi brat]

Will he stick with the Nic as tesified to or will he make usapa pay for seniority?

At times I think we are all guilty of reading more into things than are there. Didn't they say something like as far as the company was concerned the Nic award was the seniority list for US Airways pilots? Did they say it will always be the seniority list for US Airways pilots? I have thought that this was one of USAPA's biggest hurdles, but when I try and get my brain to work like a company manager I can see them twisting those words and doing whatever they want with a seniority list, as long as it favors them. So then I think why would it favor them to change it? The only reason I can come up with is if there is some type of savings that is more than the potential litigation costs that they will incur from the west if they do change it. IMHO Doug is the biggest question here and it's up to him where we go next.

 

[informed]

Elvis has the Nic list now.

 

[Black Swan]

It has been a long, hot summer so far. Waiting on Richard Casher.............

 

[Pi brat]

Elvis has the Nic list now.

He might, would be good reading while hanging out at the doughnut shop! Lot's of people have a copy of the Nic list, the question is will it ever be used. A lot of east guys think it died on SFO and I don't believe that's the case. Will it ever be used? I have no idea.

 

[cleardirect]

At times I think we are all guilty of reading more into things than are there. Didn't they say something like as far as the company was concerned the Nic award was the seniority list for US Airways pilots? Did they say it will always be the seniority list for US Airways pilots? I have thought that this was one of USAPA's biggest hurdles, but when I try and get my brain to work like a company manager I can see them twisting those words and doing whatever they want with a seniority list, as long as it favors them. So then I think why would it favor them to change it? The only reason I can come up with is if there is some type of savings that is more than the potential litigation costs that they will incur from the west if they do change it. IMHO Doug is the biggest question here and it's up to him where we go next.

100% agree that Parker is the question and key now. What if he sticks with the Nic what will usapa and the east do? If he negotiates what will he demand in return?

Can he get $50 -100 million in givebacks from usapa for a DOH like list? A 10 year fence will cost a lot of money to the company that would have to be paid for by usapa.

What does it gain the company other than contract savings to change the Nicolau?

 

[Pi brat]

100% agree that Parker is the question and key now. What if he sticks with the Nic what will usapa and the east do? If he negotiates what will he demand in return?

Can he get $50 -100 million in givebacks from usapa for a DOH like list? A 10 year fence will cost a lot of money to the company that would have to be paid for by usapa.

What does it gain the company other than contract savings to change the Nicolau?

I wish I knew the answers to your questions. I used to think the company would not use anything but the Nic since the TA seems to call for that, but again when I read it as I'm sure they read contracts, I start to think they will have an argument for what ever they decide to do. The last crew news session in PHX seems to back that up, but who knows? I wonder if USAPA will take on section 22 first or last.

 

[cleardirect]

Question to the majority!

It has been stated many times here that majority rules, usapa (the east) can invent a seniority list and as long as it passes the majority it is OK.

If that were true. Then why do unions have merger policies? If it really is up to the majority why not in every merger let the majority invent the list and the minority has to live with it? Willing to do that in the next one with AA, UAL, DAL? So why do you think it is OK in this case? When we merge would it be OK for one of those airlines to change unions and make up their own list by majoirity rule? You know wide range of reasonableness and all. If it is good for the majority as you all tell us.

As many point out we are under separate contracts. Many also say the Nicolau is dead. If that is true we never went through seniority integration. My contract says that if we merger we either use A-M if the union is different or ALPA merger policy. Not majority rules. Why aren’t we setting up for an A-M arbitration?

Usapa can send over about $1.5 million and we can hire a merger attorney and our own merger committee do this again under A-M. Which BTW is not DOH. Otherwise all you have is the majority deciding a seniority list. I think the courts will frown on that method.

Besides you guys need to read the usapa C&BL a little closer. It says to protect UNMERGER career expectations. There were 1700 east pilot on furlough that had very few unmerged career expectation. Using DOH changes those UNMERGED career expectations a lot. The west had UNMERGED career expectation of upgrades and growth. DOH destroys those UNMERGED career expectation.

Also you all need to look up “reasonable” conditions and restriction. Locking PHX up for the next 10 years is not reasonable. If PHX shrinks removing all protections and forcing PHX under DOH into east bases is not reasonable. If PHX grows locking east pilots out of PHX is not reasonable.

 

[Black Swan]

At times I think we are all guilty of reading more into things than are there. Didn't they say something like as far as the company was concerned the Nic award was the seniority list for US Airways pilots? Did they say it will always be the seniority list for US Airways pilots? I have thought that this was one of USAPA's biggest hurdles, but when I try and get my brain to work like a company manager I can see them twisting those words and doing whatever they want with a seniority list, as long as it favors them. So then I think why would it favor them to change it? The only reason I can come up with is if there is some type of savings that is more than the potential litigation costs that they will incur from the west if they do change it. IMHO Doug is the biggest question here and it's up to him where we go next.

PI, they have to accept the list from the bargaining agency that is on the property. That is USAPA. they really don't have any other option. And I don't sit here and make this up. I have someone pretty close who has taught this kind of thing for over 40 yrs. at one of the best business schools in the nation, at the grad level. In addition to negotiating contracts and also a member of the Nat'l Academy of Arbitration. The minute we put USAPA in, the first thing he said was "I think you guys just got out of the Nicolau Award...." You take it for what you want. Doug Parker has no choice. The NMB will get involved if he doesn't. You let me know in a couple of months if I was off the mark on this.

 

[Black Swan]

Question to the majority!

It has been stated many times here that majority rules, usapa (the east) can invent a seniority list and as long as it passes the majority it is OK.

If that were true. Then why do unions have merger policies? If it really is up to the majority why not in every merger let the majority invent the list and the minority has to live with it? Willing to do that in the next one with AA, UAL, DAL? So why do you think it is OK in this case? When we merge would it be OK for one of those airlines to change unions and make up their own list by majoirity rule? You know wide range of reasonableness and all. If it is good for the majority as you all tell us.

As many point out we are under separate contracts. Many also say the Nicolau is dead. If that is true we never went through seniority integration. My contract says that if we merger we either use A-M if the union is different or ALPA merger policy. Not majority rules. Why aren’t we setting up for an A-M arbitration?

Usapa can send over about $1.5 million and we can hire a merger attorney and our own merger committee do this again under A-M. Which BTW is not DOH. Otherwise all you have is the majority deciding a seniority list. I think the courts will frown on that method.

Besides you guys need to read the usapa C&BL a little closer. It says to protect UNMERGER career expectations. There were 1700 east pilot on furlough that had very few unmerged career expectation. Using DOH changes those UNMERGED career expectations a lot. The west had UNMERGED career expectation of upgrades and growth. DOH destroys those UNMERGED career expectation.

Also you all need to look up “reasonable” conditions and restriction. Locking PHX up for the next 10 years is not reasonable. If PHX shrinks removing all protections and forcing PHX under DOH into east bases is not reasonable. If PHX grows locking east pilots out of PHX is not reasonable.

Clear, the key point in all of this is the bargaining agent. I don't have to rehash it. USAPA is the bargaining agent selected before the Nicolau Award was implemented. This completely took the Nic out of it, as it is an ALPA agreement, never implemented. Baptiste and Wilder really had the best argument regarding this. Like it or not, USAPA is the new bargaining agent. Seniority is negotiable, whatever is chosen. Harm is always a possibility. The entire matter boils down to this- Parker cannot negotiate with any other agent for the pilots other than USAPA. If USAPA hands him a list,the latest list is the list that counts. Even if they handed him the Nicolau a month ago, they could come right back with another one. The notion that Parker can pick and choose the list of his choice, or make us pay for it is hogwash.If he starts this, he is going to have the NMB on his case immediately. He is smart enough to know which he takes. It is the list USAPA gives him. The rest of the story is ours. The harm stuff. He is going to take a DOH list with C&R's and then we are someday going to get a contract, and then the west is free to sue. I will not say if they win at this point, but they can sue.

 

[Black Swan]

100% agree that Parker is the question and key now. What if he sticks with the Nic what will usapa and the east do? If he negotiates what will he demand in return?

Can he get $50 -100 million in givebacks from usapa for a DOH like list? A 10 year fence will cost a lot of money to the company that would have to be paid for by usapa.

What does it gain the company other than contract savings to change the Nicolau?

Clear, there are rules Parker has to follow, if he doesn't he will then be in violation of collective bargaining agreement, administered/enforced by the Nat'l Mediation Board. He cannot demand anything, nor negotiate with any other agent other than USAPA. There are no negotiations period between the company and the bargaining agent regarding anything concerning the list that is handed to them.

 

[Pi brat]

You let me know in a couple of months if I was off the mark on this..

I will try to remember. I know nothing about the legal aspect of this, as has been shown. Someone else brought up the question of why we even have merger policies etc., and if you are right in your post(not saying you aren't) why isn't it the biggest guy wins? How would a merger with USAPA and any other union work out? Could we merger with AA use the new law and come with a deal to just have APA walk around it? Why hasn't this happen before? Was this really just the perfect storm where one side just happened to have the majority and the will to overcome the arbitrated list? Real questions that I don't know the answer to.

 

[Black Swan]

I will try to remember. I know nothing about the legal aspect of this, as has been shown. Someone else brought up the question of why we even have merger policies etc., and if you are right in your post(not saying you aren't) why isn't it the biggest guy wins? How would a merger with USAPA and any other union work out? Could we merger with AA use the new law and come with a deal to just have APA walk around it? Why hasn't this happen before? Was this really just the perfect storm where one side just happened to have the majority and the will to overcome the arbitrated list? Real questions that I don't know the answer to.

Hi PI, the deal here is this- there is no Federal law mandating how unions integrate. This is what all the discussion about INTERNAL UNION AFFAIRS is about. You saw it with the 9th. As long as nobody's civil rights are violated, unions are free to negotiate and determine their own agreements. The Federal Gov't and Courts really are prohibited and do not want to get involved in this. You saw the process work fairly well in DAL NWA because it really did not cause the heartburn we see here. That is why it was pulled off. And they were both ALPA, and it appeared there was no windfall that anyone contested. I bet there are some suits being filed within that group, but we shall see. Our attempted merge caused such angst that it triggered a representation determination election. I will not take either side here. Just stating the obvious. This is a case where the biggest and majority wins. The obvious again. This is what happens when the largest pilot group feels they were really dealt a bad deal. Both sides dig in, and now it comes to this. All legal. The side that has the most members can and will dictate the terms if they are motivated enough to do so, and feel the seniority agreement transcends all reasonability. I do believe ALPA realized they were in troubled waters, therefore Wye River. When that failed, for whatever reason, both sides were free to do what they wanted.ALPA gambled the East would not leave. They obviously were incorrect. The East chose to remove ALPA. The West chose to continue to push the Nic.and were dragged into USAPA. Now we are here. And the majority will rule because they have the power, right or wrong. No comment. It is all about who has the horsepower, as in most things in life. Now those with the power are going to deliver a list with DOH and C&R's which they feel are adequate to cause no harm. If we ever get a contract, the West will undoubtedly sue for harm. They will continue to use the Nic. No comment on this. If they can prove they were harmed, they will have some sort of recourse. The Judge Wake issue? A momentary distraction that has been totally removed because it jumped the gun, according to the 9th. This is where we stand. The next thing you will most likely see, is the DOH list with C&R's that USAPA feels will protect the West get handed to Parker.This process is non negotiable, and is a formality sanctioned by the NMB. I am making no comment on this, because I honestly see how both sides are seriously *^%% off, and this is what happens when both sides fail to get their own agreement among themselves. I have a very good friend who is a Delaware River Pilots Association member, and their pilots cannot understand why we don't have something better in place to deal with this internally. This should have been worked out by ALPA decades ago.

 

[Pi brat]

Hi PI, the deal here is this- there is no Federal law mandating how unions integrate. This is what all the discussion about INTERNAL UNION AFFAIRS is about. You saw it with the 9th. As long as nobody's civil rights are violated, unions are free to negotiate and determine their own agreements. The Federal Gov't and Courts really are prohibited and do not want to get involved in this. You saw the process work fairly well in DAL NWA because it really did not cause the heartburn we see here. That is why it was pulled off. And they were both ALPA, and it appeared there was no windfall that anyone contested. I bet there are some suits being filed within that group, but we shall see. Our attempted merge caused such angst that it triggered a representation determination election. I will not take either side here. Just stating the obvious. This is a case where the biggest and majority wins. The obvious again. This is what happens when the largest pilot group feels they were really dealt a bad deal. Both sides dig in, and now it comes to this. All legal. The side that has the most members can and will dictate the terms if they are motivated enough to do so, and feel the seniority agreement transcends all reasonability. I do believe ALPA realized they were in troubled waters, therefore Wye River. When that failed, for whatever reason, both sides were free to do what they wanted.ALPA gambled the East would not leave. They obviously were incorrect. The East chose to remove ALPA. The West chose to continue to push the Nic.and were dragged into USAPA. Now we are here. And the majority will rule because they have the power, right or wrong. No comment. It is all about who has the horsepower, as in most things in life. Now those with the power are going to deliver a list with DOH and C&R's which they feel are adequate to cause no harm. If we ever get a contract, the West will undoubtedly sue for harm. They will continue to use the Nic. No comment on this. If they can prove they were harmed, they will have some sort of recourse. The Judge Wake issue? A momentary distraction that has been totally removed because it jumped the gun, according to the 9th. This is where we stand. The next thing you will most likely see, is the DOH list with C&R's that USAPA feels will protect the West get handed to Parker.This process is non negotiable, and is a formality sanctioned by the NMB. I am making no comment on this, because I honestly see how both sides are seriously *^%% off, and this is what happens when both sides fail to get their own agreement among themselves. I have a very good friend who is a Delaware River Pilots Association member, and their pilots cannot understand why we don't have something better in place to deal with this internally. This should have been worked out by ALPA decades ago.

Black Swan,

Thanks for taking the time to clearly articulate your thoughts. I guess with an AA merger the same thing is possible and something we will have pay attention to. As you said, with many things in life the horsepower does indeed count.

 

[nic4us]

PI, they have to accept the list from the bargaining agency that is on the property. That is USAPA. they really don't have any other option. And I don't sit here and make this up. I have someone pretty close who has taught this kind of thing for over 40 yrs. at one of the best business schools in the nation, at the grad level. In addition to negotiating contracts and also a member of the Nat'l Academy of Arbitration. The minute we put USAPA in, the first thing he said was "I think you guys just got out of the Nicolau Award...." You take it for what you want. Doug Parker has no choice. The NMB will get involved if he doesn't. You let me know in a couple of months if I was off the mark on this.

Swan,

You are missing a very important point.

The company does not have to accept usapa's list at the bargaining table. No more than they would have to accept a usapa demand for $400/hour narrowbody pay rate. They can say, "no, this is a deal breaker for us." They have very legitimate reasons for denying a usapa DOH list. The only recourse usapa would have is to ask the mediator to rule an impass and seek self help.

That is the hole in Seham's plan. It is not just up to the union to dictate seniority. Our seniority was integrated via a mutually agreed upon, contractually mandated method. usapa can try and break those contracts and defend itself against a ripe DFR suit, but they cannot force the company to break its contracts.