US Pilots Labor Discussion 5/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Flippin43]

So here is the what I say it boils down to. ALPA is finally going to admit MDA was mainline. It was mainline because the FEDs would not not let MDA start up that fast with a new certificate. So the way to get around it, according to the FAA, was just add the E-175 as a new airplane to mainline. So that is what happened. All in the name of a quick start up. It is that simple to add a new jet to an existing airline. No certificate needed. One catch, you had to somehow convince the pilots it was an express when it really wasn't. You paint it on the side, but that isn't the truth. The certificate is the truth, and it says USAirways. So if it says USAirways on the certificate of MDA, not MDA, and the boys flying the jets have USAirways ID's, then maybe those pilots weren't furloughed after all were they????So I do believe, if ALPA does come out, like I think they are going to do, and maybe lay the blame on the ALPA reps on the property, and maybe let them swing in the wind rather than be liable for $$$ the MDA guys are going to have a real big lever to use any way they want. Money, or the Nic. Maybe both..........

BS,

I understand what your saying here but you or anyone else have still not explained why the most Junior AAA pilot that was not furlouged when MDA existed could not have decided that he did not wish to be an F/O at Mainline and instead would like to be a Captain at MDA.. Today, right now, a Junior east pilot can bid for a 190 Capt seat, correct. the 190 is just another piece of mainline equipt. those flying it are not Furloughed correct. Your current east list may well tell the tale. I'm gonna guess that the the most Junior east narrowbody F/O cannot hold a 190 Capt seat. Because others senior to him hold it.
This was not the case with MDA am I right. The most Junior narrowbody F/O could not bid to the MDA operation because he had not been Furloughed. If anyone can explain that this stipulation did not exist then you may get somewhere.

If as you say the MDA operation was just the same as Mainline. Why then were pilots allowed to decline this duty and stay on Furlough? As you know by the vociforous protestations of pilots forced to fly it or resign as things have been backing up recently that this is not the current state of affairs.

Evidence at the Trial......................

Please educate yourself as to the true issue at the Trial last May. The Nic list was not on trial. What was on trial was what usapa wished to do with the list (abandon it for their own) The actual Merits of the list were not on trial. I was there. I sought to educate myself about the trial. I suggest you stop believing what people want you to believe and find out what is actually going on for yourself. The first place to start is the legal library on usapas site and read Judge Wakes findings of Facts and Law.

Flip

 

[jetjok1]

The East guys gave up on this forum because they HAVE NO VALID ARGUMENT. And they know it.

They are good at deflection from the truth. Keep losing USAPA, keep losing!!!

NRBAGFY

This is anything but a forum. It's a laugh a minute. Continually slamming posters (both East and West) over and over again is not constructive at all...........it's destructive. Keeping the two sides apart........yep,..... that's what this place is good for, although, I must admit, you guys need some new material. It's getting boring!

Truthfully, there are only a few posters (on both sides) that have anything thought-provoking to say. The rest of you need to get a life

 

[john john]

So you would be seeking relief from a decision that was never honored in the first place?

Who did’tn honor it
The majority of the USAirways pilots

 

[nic4us]

If this arbitration is based on incorrect information, then is it likely to get amended, or thrown out? Maybe the top 2/3 stays the same. I don't even purport to know what happens. But the bottom group? If they were never really off the mainline list, and Nic based the bottom on Joe Monda when he really is not the bottom guy after all? Your guess is as good as mine. A fools errand? I don't think so. We will just have to wait and see, just like the 9th.

Swan,

Actually Nic referenced both Monda and Colello and the furloughees who had been recalled due to the merger ( some 200+ by 2007 when the award was written) when he explained why he put Odell above Colello. It was not as simple as your junior guy=our junior guy+1. Remember that by this time Colello had been recalled along with a couple hundred others, and I am sure some of those were MDA pilots. In putting Odell below Monda, but above Colello and the recalls, Nicolau specifically stated in the award that he was granting the West a portion of what we sought( and in his opinion he said we deserved), that being furlough protection for our most junior pilots (Remember Save Dave?).

Also, a condition of the Nic list is it will not alter the Kagel award, so if Colello's name or the names of any MDA pilots are on that award, the correct sequence of names was used, and they were placed on the Nic appropriately.

Wether you consider the MDA pilots as active or furloughed is actually inconsequential to their placement on the Nic list. They are all junior to Colello, therefore, they are all junior to Odell and the entire West list, pretty simple math really.

 

[Black Swan]

BS,

I understand what your saying here but you or anyone else have still not explained why the most Junior AAA pilot that was not furlouged when MDA existed could not have decided that he did not wish to be an F/O at Mainline and instead would like to be a Captain at MDA.. Today, right now, a Junior east pilot can bid for a 190 Capt seat, correct. the 190 is just another piece of mainline equipt. those flying it are not Furloughed correct. Your current east list may well tell the tale. I'm gonna guess that the the most Junior east narrowbody F/O cannot hold a 190 Capt seat. Because others senior to him hold it.
This was not the case with MDA am I right. The most Junior narrowbody F/O could not bid to the MDA operation because he had not been Furloughed. If anyone can explain that this stipulation did not exist then you may get somewhere.

If as you say the MDA operation was just the same as Mainline. Why then were pilots allowed to decline this duty and stay on Furlough? As you know by the vociforous protestations of pilots forced to fly it or resign as things have been backing up recently that this is not the current state of affairs.

Evidence at the Trial......................

Please educate yourself as to the true issue at the Trial last May. The Nic list was not on trial. What was on trial was what usapa wished to do with the list (abandon it for their own) The actual Merits of the list were not on trial. I was there. I sought to educate myself about the trial. I suggest you stop believing what people want you to believe and find out what is actually going on for yourself. The first place to start is the legal library on usapas site and read Judge Wakes findings of Facts and Law.

Flip

43 Here is the way it was. Everybody below Monda got the notice of furlough. Our ALPA MEC was working with the company to use MDA as a "soft landing" The entire deal was originally floated with the story that the furloughed would get the same pay as mainline. Hence the soft landing. The MEC worked hand in hand with the company to build the MDA concept. The company then sought a separate certificate for MDA, which would enable them to create another wholly owned so to speak. This required a new certificate. The company had ordered the jets. They needed the cert. The company was unable to get the cert. in a timely fashion from the Feds. It takes a long time to get a new certificate for an airline. Sometimes years, proving runs, on and on. The FAA said the only way to get the jets up and running was to just add them to the fleet. Just like adding an Airbus or a 737. No new certificate, no delay. Just go to a certified sim. and get the types and you go. All this took place without the line pilots realizing it. How is the line pilot ever to get the info? The ones who worked with the company? The AAA Mec and ALPA. They knew the whole deal, and went with it.They played along. So out went the furlough notices, with the MDA jobs offered to the "furloughed pilots" They went to the jets that said Express on them. Mainline pilots not furloughed could not get a seat as a capt. at MDA as it was for furloughed pilots only. All a smokescreen. There was NO MDA certificate. It was the USAirways cert. that the 175's flew on. Not like PSA, Piedmont, , etc. with their own certificates. I saw the MDA id's. They said USAirways on them. They had to. If they did not, it would be a fake ID put out by the company. Meanwhile, the pay rate conveniently changes. Lower. Now guys figure they can do better at North American, corporate, Flight Safety and on and on. They pass on MDA. Enough guys pass on it that it actually has to hire off the street. These guys actually considered themselves lucky, as when recalls came, they had to get recalled to mainline. Now why would the company have to recall these bottom guys at MDA to mainline you ask? Simple. Because the truth of the matter was they were hired at USAirways mainline all along, owing to the certificate saying it.And the ID's. As for the narrowbody F/O going to a capt seat on the 190? Most won't do it because it is marginally better pay wise. Does this clear this up at all? Now, where I am going is this. The fact these guys were never actually furloughed was obscured by the company and our MEC, and ALPA Nat'l. The list was given to Nicolau with the premise of these pilots being on the street. All false. If the MDA guys get this admitted by ALPA nat'l as they believe, and soon- this is going to make this case abundantly clear that Joe Monda was NOT the bottom guy. And where do you now define the bottom when you have guys that passed on MDA as they believed the lie of it being express, and did not remain on the mainline list because of false information passed to them. Now they have off the street guys on the mainline list unbeknownst to them.Where does the furloughed line get drawn now? You can't rectify this simply. Does this call for the entire deal to be re done? The info given by the company and our ALPA to Nic was false. Monda was not the bottom man. Who was now? You tell me. This, if it comes to ALPA admitting these guys were mainline, is a whole new game. I have no idea where it goes, but there are going to be some serious issues with the Nic. I honestly cannot say how it gets cleared up. Ideas?

 

[Black Swan]

So you would be seeking relief from a decision that was never honored in the first place?

If this is how you phrase it, then the West never "honored " it either. It takes a joint contract to "honor" the Nicolau Award.

 

[nic4us]

The rest of you need to get a life

Perhaps what we need to get is a life with a better union.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

So you would be seeking relief from a decision that was never honored in the first place?

Add in the fact that the east should have spoken up before they signed a Binding Arbitration.

Too bad, its called Binding for a reason.

 

[oscarjazz]

If this is how you phrase it, then the West never "honored " it either. It takes a joint contract to "honor" the Nicolau Award.

Let's say your MDA history is correct. Nicolau created a status and category list. Where would E-175 pilots go on a status and category list? At the bottom right above furloughed pilots. I don't see how this development would change the list at all. If you are furloughed you go to the bottom, if you are an RJ pilot you go to the bottom. You can't tell me that if Airways bought Mesa, they would not staple them to the bottom of the list.

If Nicolau were to revisit this arbitration, he would first have to have both sides accept the first result. He would not give the East a free shot just to reject the result once again.

 

[ROACLT]

So you would be seeking relief from a decision that was never honored in the first place?

That silly ripeness issue, huh?

 

[Black Swan]

From what I have been told, by another arbitrator. The only way this award can be changed, is by the arbitrator himself. I know some of you have mentioned this. Now, if ALPA Nat'l admits there was no furlough to a certain group of guys assumed to be, maybe it is enough. If there was a fraud perpetrated, it could be opened. All up to the arbitrator. I am not sure if there is any other avenue if it were proven there was fraud. Regardless, this is going to slow any contract going forward, as there are going to be another group that is going to want to wait and see where this goes, if it does go.

 

[N924PS]

From what I have been told, by another arbitrator. The only way this award can be changed, is by the arbitrator himself. I know some of you have mentioned this. Now, if ALPA Nat'l admits there was no furlough to a certain group of guys assumed to be, maybe it is enough. If there was a fraud perpetrated, it could be opened. All up to the arbitrator. I am not sure if there is any other avenue if it were proven there was fraud. Regardless, this is going to slow any contract going forward, as there are going to be another group that is going to want to wait and see where this goes, if it does go.

Refresh my memory please.

Wasn't there a seniority list certification process that was accomplished by the respective merger committees? And the result of that was a true and correct list presented by the merger committees to arbitrator Nicolau?

If no one challenged the order of the list prior to the result, why would Nicolau reconsider his decision?

Even if ALPA admits to whatever, I doubt the list will be reordered. And even if it was, it would not be DOH.

 

[Freebird]

From what I have been told, by another arbitrator. The only way this award can be changed, is by the arbitrator himself. I know some of you have mentioned this. Now, if ALPA Nat'l admits there was no furlough to a certain group of guys assumed to be, maybe it is enough. If there was a fraud perpetrated, it could be opened. All up to the arbitrator. I am not sure if there is any other avenue if it were proven there was fraud. Regardless, this is going to slow any contract going forward, as there are going to be another group that is going to want to wait and see where this goes, if it does go.

Why did Collelo chose to remain an F.O. on reserve, when he could have been an E-190 Captain? Did he have the choice? No? Why not? Because he wasnt FURLOUGHED.

Only Furloughed pilots were offered the positions, correct? Keep up the entertainment !!!!

How much is USAPA costing you?

 

[Freebird]

Where are the names? Lets' start there. Waiting...........

Ask your buddy Black Swan; Im responding to his comment about the lack of East posters and their lack of interest on this board. I took the liberty of copying it for you..your Wait time is short, like Usapa's. Im sure a resourceful pilot like yourself (in the top 300) can google a Freedom Scab list.

View PostBlack Swan, on 18 May 2010 - 11:29 AM, said:
Ok, here is where you guys excel. I am not backing this guy or anything he did. But give the proof that he flew a trip, as you say he did. Next, give the names of the others you allege did the same. Throw a lot of stuff out there, and no support. This is why the east guys pretty much gave up on the forum.


Vote for Fergie !!!! Everybody's doing it !!!

Eric Fergeson, Integrity Incarnate

 

[Crzipilot]

The MDA issue doesn't seem as though it would be THAT hard to reorder the bottom 1/3 of the list. I.E. if it's shown that via, the MEC ALPA and Management perpetrated fraud as to the true status of what MDA was, it's simply part of Mainline. MDA had what...400 pilots??? Soooooo you take the AWA bottom guy, (dave?) and he goes on top of the US new bottom guy, 400 numbers further down. Doesn't have to be done by the actual names that were at MDA due to the absolute horrible way that whole program was handled by ALPA. Just reorder the the combine of the list with an extra 400 guys on the US side.....so yes, the bottom 10% would probably change quite a bit.

And actually there were provisions I believe for a non furlough noticed pilot to take a position at MDA, to tired to look but think it was in LOA 91 or 93, but obviously there was no bidding off the 170 back up to the bus or such. Hence the shadow games played by alpa. In the same as, since these were simply aircraft added to US certificate, flown on the US certificate, these positions should have been filled by RECALL, which would have been way before the merger....