US Pilots Labor Discussion 1/13- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[nic4us]

Bonus huh? I was hired a couple of years before A-West was even formed, you really can't be that stupid or greedy to think that you should go ahead of me, although with the sense of entitlement that you guys have I guess I know the answer.

Post Nic, no West pilot has ever claimed they should go ahead of you. However, I have been a captain for over 10 years, and usapa claims that some 2000 pilots that are junior to me on the Nic, should actually be senior to me. That from the original certified list, all your employed F/Os plus a couple hundred furloughed should be senior to me, although I am in a lineholding captain seat and have more LOS than many of these folks.

What I would like to know from all the very senior posters on this board. While I admire your standing with your fellow pilots, have you ever considered, that you are also betraying the very pilots you may one day find yourself flying with. That is, when your current F/Os all upgrade at the expense of the West, who do you think you are going to fly with, and what do you think they are going to think of your attack on their livelyhoods.

 

[N924PS]

The difference between you and me is you have that "I got mine attitude" that's why no one likes working with you, try not to be self centered. listen to the junior guys sometimes. That number 1 slot in PHX must be looking really good for you, and you can tell the west boys how you supported them through all this.

Please read numerous previous posts: I am NOT who you think I am.

There are many more of us out here than you think. Just not as vocal as most of you on this forum. Yet.

At the end of this "process", I fear the East pilots will have spent a lot of money for nothing, and wind up exactly where they would have been in the first place. The World According to Nic.

 

[CallawayGolf]

There is nothing to call or write our Reps about. We are miles apart, and years away from any meaningful contract proposal, and given the company's negotiating schedule, progression is at a snails' pace. The only indefinite suffering occurs under an implemented NIC, and those fears are not unfounded......they are a LOCK under NIC (a LOCK-OUT for many East F/O's who will never upgrade or get back to the left seat).

USAPA is not chasing their tail. They are the CBA charged with putting two polarized groups together. Most likely an insurmountable task given the positions of the two groups (ok, maybe they are chasing their tail). We are the 'boogeymen', East and West, polarized and cemented in our positions. Admittedly, both sides with some valid arguments. Nonetheless, here we are....fighting like children on the playground. Thank you NIC!

You are correct to say 'that perfect contract' won't materialize. We know that. Especially in this economic environment! So, we will take our 'incremental wins' (3%/year going forward.....my guess as to how the LOA93/84 grievence plays out......at a minimum) to beat the loss of an 'overreaching agenda' (NIC). It is going to be a long, long, turbulent road. So buckle up! Until a serious proposal is put forth in a TA, one that is palatable and beneficial to all involved, all this talk of a 'vote' is premature.

Now if you truly wish to understand the situation facing the East pilots, if you honestly want to get your finger on the pulse of the East pilots' minds, then ask yourself this question:

How may West pilots would vote 'yes' to a contract that contains a 10% pay raise, lowers the minimum fleet (to 250 aircraft?) AND implements a seniority list that virtually guarantees 85% of your (West) F/O's will NEVER upgrade?

Your answer will give you your own 'direct line to the mind of the East pilots'.

Translation - USAPA will never negotiate in good faith to achieve a joint TA/CBA because when all the hyperbole and misdirection is stripped away they know that NIC will be the only seniority list used in a new contract. USAPA's leadership is so pathological in their no-NIC beliefs that no injunction, no fine, no contempt of court charge will ever force them to actually negotiate a contract or put a TA out to vote. The company knows this so they are only putting forth the required effort as management is fully aware that there is no real effort being made by USAPA in negotiations.

I'll say it again: this will only end when 1) USAPA is decertified/dissolved or 2) the company uses self-help to remove USAPA from the equation altogether.

 

[cleardirect]

Well, that's part of the problem that the west doesn't seem to understand. "Go for 10% more next time" is meaningless to the east pilots simply because of our collective age. There will likely BE no next time for a great percentage of us, so we are not willing to sell out now and inflict the Nic on those of us who are left.

And I find it hilarious that now the westies are talking about some nebulous "modified" Kirby proposal. Who exactly modified it? What exactly are the modifications? Where do you guys get this stuff? There is no "modified Kirby" on the negotiating table as far as anyone (including the NAC) knows. So, let's stop talking about the "modified Kirby" until we see something concrete in that regard.

So you guys, instead of getting paid some, you are willing to wait for nothing. As you point out the next time is now. Instead of getting 18-25% now you all are willing to retire on LOA 93 because you will not have a chance to get more later?

This does not even make sense.

Where do we get this stuff? Jack Stephan on the witness stand under oath. That is the modification to the Kirby we are talking about. Here is a person under oath saying something ,but you believe the NAC not under oath that are having a hard time negotiating bath room breaks with the company. Do you think that it is possible that the NAC might be covering up their incompetence?

Now let me ask a question. Where do you guys get your information that as soon as a contract is signed we will shrink to 250 airplanes or that the east is more profitable. Any reliable source under oath? Any company official making a statement on the public record or a federal filing. No just crew room gossip I guess.

 

[cactusboy53]

So.......If the company negotiates in such a way so as to maneuver AWAY from the SHORT TERM DISABILITY, and opt for some sort of Super Sick Bank....wouldn't that lead a person to believe that PERHAPS the Short Term Disability program was a GOOD thing for any pilot????? Duh.

Here's a short course in negotiating:

If the company really wants it, it helps the company. If you choose to accept the program / option that the company insists on....YOU HAD BETTER GET SOMETHING IN EXCHANGE. Better yet, tell them "NO THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE. Here's what we want......".

Again, just because it is something in the west contract DOES NOT INTRINSICALLY MAKE IT BAD.

 

[Metroyet]

And I find it hilarious that now the westies are talking about some nebulous "modified" Kirby proposal. Who exactly modified it? What exactly are the modifications? Where do you guys get this stuff? There is no "modified Kirby" on the negotiating table as far as anyone (including the NAC) knows. So, let's stop talking about the "modified Kirby" until we see something concrete in that regard.

Of course you're free to wield your 1/5600th share of power however you'd like.

 

[luvthe9]

At the end of this "process", I fear the East pilots will a spent a lot of money for nothing, and wind up exactly where they would have been in the first place. The World According to Nic.

I will agree that is quite possible but if you ask them it's money well spent, ask you F/Os what they think, I do and it's always the same response and I think you know what that is.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I will agree that is quite possible but if you ask them it's money well spent, ask you F/Os what they think, I do and it's always the same response and I think you know what that is.

Just throwing money into a wishing well (SSMP, LLC to be exact). More throwing money away to come.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Instead of getting 18-25% now .....

Where do you come up with these numbers? I won't get 18% with Kirby. I'll get 3%, if that.

I can very happily bypass that and vote "no" till I retire if the Nic is attached. 3% is enough to pass up just to watch you westies pitch fits.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Where do you come up with these numbers? I won't get 18% with Kirby. I'll get 3%, if that.

I can very happily bypass that and vote "no" till I retire if the Nic is attached. 3% is enough to pass up just to watch you westies pitch fits.

Typical twisted liberal logic: supporting actions that bring personal harm so that you can enjoy the sadistic pleasure of seeing another group suffer.

 

[Barrister]

Isn’t it interesting that somehow everyone at us airways is fairly senior. But I guess the guys “HERE†that were furlough consider themselves senior, that is what I “HEARâ€.

Kind of like two years ago the whining that we heard that every poster claimed they were going to be the number one wide body captain before the merger, but now will never upgrade or have lost 2000 numbers. How is it that the same guys complaining that they will never upgrade are now the same guy here that are “fairly senior captainsâ€.

If all of you are “fairly senior†then you did not loss any years under Nicolau. But instead what we hear about is the 17 years loss of DOH that Nicolau gave you no value for your time. That is only at the bottom furloughed guys not the 500 placed at the top of the list. †You all will forgive me if I don’t believe you anymore. The BS meter is pegged.

Ah....excuse me .....that is the point......we are ALL SENIOR TO YOU.

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[EastUS]

Typical twisted liberal logic: supporting actions that bring personal harm so that you can enjoy the sadistic pleasure of seeing another group suffer.

That area's previously covered and fully explored ethical discussion via the west's "You can live on LOA93 forever!!"

 

[ableoneable]

Ah....excuse me .....that is the point......we are ALL SENIOR TO YOU.

VNIIMN
NPJB

Certainly more arrogant.

The seniority part, not so much.

 

[RSVP767]

Typical twisted liberal logic: supporting actions that bring personal harm so that you can enjoy the sadistic pleasure of seeing another group suffer.

Yet you're just fine with implementing the NIC and seeing the EAST suffer??? All the while feeling justified because you have the 'free pass' from George!

 

[EastUS]

I will agree that is quite possible but if you ask them it's money well spent, ask you F/Os what they think, I do and it's always the same response and I think you know what that is.

Money well spent? = Agreed for myself as well, and I've not yet worked with any of our FO's that would differ there. To a man/woman; they've all appreciated my thoughts of NEVER voting in anything with the nic poison enabled.....