US Pilots Labor Discussion 5/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Flippin43]

There is some good news coming regarding the MDA guys. Sounds like ALPA has admitted the MDA pilots were on the mainline list. This is going to have serious repercussions regarding the Nic.

Can you point to where this declaration is posted?

If a Furloughed AAA pilot working at MDA was on the Mainline list, how is this news. I don't believe anyone has said a Furloughed AAA pilot working for MDA is not a AAA pilot deserving to be on the Mainline list. Though I believe it was clear in the Arbitration that these AAA pilots working for MDA were in fact Furloughed from the Mainline at the time of the Merger. And their placement on the list reflected this. If the Arbitrator was aware then, of their status and still placed them where he did. What is different now. OR are you suggesting that street hires to MDA be treated as AAA pilots, that would be interesting as one of these very pilots told me he was interviewed and hired by MDA and did not participate in a AAA interview. If he was not hired by AAA how would he recieve a Recall to Mainline? Is there any proof such as a LOA,MOU that any or all MDA pilots could excercise any bidding rights at Mainline without a "Recall" letter?

I would welcome any information that proves these guys were mishandled in the Merger. I have paid close attention to this issue and have read all that I have seen on it. Confusing as it is. What I have not at any time seen is any info that can show that there was any activity (bidding to mainline by an MDA guy or vice versa for that matter) at mainline by a Furloughed MDA guy without him or her first recieving a "recall" letter. I believe until this stipulation is proven to not have existed that things will stay as they are.

Not to mention that AWA did not Merge with MDA, I believe most can agree with that.


Flip

 

[Black Swan]

Our ex Mesa guys have found 11 so far.

You guys were born in the late 80's (just kidding) so I am going to remind you about New York Air. Lorenzo split some jets and ops off Eastern, and formed New York Air. It was an alter ego like Freedom, a bad deal. Yet ALPA never termed them scabs as they did NOT CROSS A PICKET LINE. So you are going to have to be very precise here with anybody who was at Freedom. Do I condone anything or anyone associated with Freedom? No. They did not get the jumpseat. Contrary to what you think, I NEVER denied a westie the seat. Unless ALPA put Freedom on the Scab list, you cannot deem them to be that.

 

[Flippin43]

I don't care for any of the Freedom, even Mesa deal. Did ALPA put the Freedom pilots on an official SCAB list?

So now you look to your despised Alpa for their blessing before you recognize their actions for what they are.

Most every Mesa Alpa Union pilot (not Freedom) was able to supply those that wanted one a list. If that is what your asking.

Flip

 

[Black Swan]

Can you point to where this declaration is posted?

If a Furloughed AAA pilot working at MDA was on the Mainline list, how is this news. I don't believe anyone has said a Furloughed AAA pilot working for MDA is not a AAA pilot deserving to be on the Mainline list. Though I believe it was clear in the Arbitration that these AAA pilots working for MDA were in fact Furloughed from the Mainline at the time of the Merger. And their placement on the list reflected this. If the Arbitrator was aware then, of their status and still placed them where he did. What is different now. OR are you suggesting that street hires to MDA be treated as AAA pilots, that would be interesting as one of these very pilots told me he was interviewed and hired by MDA and did not participate in a AAA interview. If he was not hired by AAA how would he recieve a Recall to Mainline? Is there any proof such as a LOA,MOU that any or all MDA pilots could excercise any bidding rights at Mainline without a "Recall" letter?

I would welcome any information that proves these guys were mishandled in the Merger. I have paid close attention to this issue and have read all that I have seen on it. Confusing as it is. What I have not at any time seen is any info that can show that there was any activity (bidding to mainline by an MDA guy or vice versa for that matter) at mainline by a Furloughed MDA guy without him or her first recieving a "recall" letter. I believe until this stipulation is proven to not have existed that things will stay as they are.

Not to mention that AWA did not Merge with MDA, I believe most can agree with that.


Flip

This is totally un-official. Take it for what it is. It is me talking with a close friend who is HEAVILY involved. It could turn out to be not actually what happens. But what he says is this thing is drawing down, and there is going to be a settlement coming soon. It appears ALPA is going to admit MDA was Mainline. If this is true, the back end of the list is all screwed up as MDA ended up with new hires on the list, mainline. This happened because a lot of guys wanted nothing to do with it, under the assumption MDA was an express operation. There is nothing official on this yet. It may turn out to be wrong, but this is probably not the case.

 

[Flippin43]

You guys were born in the late 80's (just kidding) so I am going to remind you about New York Air. Lorenzo split some jets and ops off Eastern, and formed New York Air. It was an alter ego like Freedom, a bad deal. Yet ALPA never termed them scabs as they did NOT CROSS A PICKET LINE. So you are going to have to be very precise here with anybody who was at Freedom. Do I condone anything or anyone associated with Freedom? No. They did not get the jumpseat. Contrary to what you think, I NEVER denied a westie the seat. Unless ALPA put Freedom on the Scab list, you cannot deem them to be that.

All of a sudden you seem a resonable guy lately. Then you begin splitting hairs. Your Pilot Unions Elected Reps at the time told each and every Furloughed AAA pilot not to go there or there would be consequences. They saw this for what it was. No scab list maybe but they strongly disagreed with this type of anti union activity. If you feel that since they weren't placed on a scab list keeps them fit for service at our New and supposedly better designed from the Line Pilot up Union. Thats too bad for you and all the rest of us. Very disappointing to be sure.

Flip

 

[Black Swan]

So now you look to your despised Alpa for their blessing before you recognize their actions for what they are.

Most every Mesa Alpa Union pilot (not Freedom) was able to supply those that wanted one a list. If that is what your asking.

Flip

No, I am asking YOU to look for the SCAB list published by the end all union ALPA. And I would like to see the list posted so we could see. Because I would be interested to see if ALPA termed them to actually be scabs. OK?

 

[Black Swan]

All of a sudden you seem a resonable guy lately. Then you begin splitting hairs. Your Pilot Unions Elected Reps at the time told each and every Furloughed AAA pilot not to go there or there would be consequences. They saw this for what it was. No scab list maybe but they strongly disagreed with this type of anti union activity. If you feel that since they weren't placed on a scab list keeps them fit for service at our New and supposedly better designed from the Line Pilot up Union. Thats too bad for you and all the rest of us. Very disappointing to be sure.

Flip

You need to pay attention. I want nothing to do with a Freedom pilot. I do not want him in any association I am in,much less run for office and be elected. I don't want to fly with one. I did not let Freedom pilots in the J/S. I do not like any pilot who went to NY Air. They did not get a ride either. But I am not going to call a Freedom pilot a scab unless they are on a list. It is that simple. I accept the ALPA scab list as valid.

 

[Flippin43]

This is totally un-official. Take it for what it is. It is me talking with a close friend who is HEAVILY involved. It could turn out to be not actually what happens. But what he says is this thing is drawing down, and there is going to be a settlement coming soon. It appears ALPA is going to admit MDA was Mainline. If this is true, the back end of the list is all screwed up as MDA ended up with new hires on the list, mainline. This happened because a lot of guys wanted nothing to do with it, under the assumption MDA was an express operation. There is nothing official on this yet. It may turn out to be wrong, but this is probably not the case.

Exactly..................

This is the way every one believes it was, most importantly,the Arbitrator did.

Because Alpa decides to pay MDA guys a bunch of money does not mean that the Nic will change. Tell me this, which do you want more? The Money from Alpa or the Nic to change? Whether you get money or not you have to Appeal your case to Nicolau who retains jurisdiction on the list. This has not been done to my knowledge since May of 07'. Could it be that its because he already heard it all and still placed these pilots where he did.?? Its in the transcripts that your Reps you put in place didn't want you to see.

Sorry you have probably heard this all before.

Flip

 

[Black Swan]

Exactly..................

This is the way every one believes it was, most importantly,the Arbitrator did.

Because Alpa decides to pay MDA guys a bunch of money does not mean that the Nic will change. Tell me this, which do you want more? The Money from Alpa or the Nic to change? Whether you get money or not you have to Appeal your case to Nicolau who retains jurisdiction on the list. This has not been done to my knowledge since May of 07'. Could it be that its because he already heard it all and still placed these pilots where he did.?? Its in the transcripts that your Reps you put in place didn't want you to see.

Sorry you have probably heard this all before.

Flip

So here is the what I say it boils down to. ALPA is finally going to admit MDA was mainline. It was mainline because the FEDs would not not let MDA start up that fast with a new certificate. So the way to get around it, according to the FAA, was just add the E-175 as a new airplane to mainline. So that is what happened. All in the name of a quick start up. It is that simple to add a new jet to an existing airline. No certificate needed. One catch, you had to somehow convince the pilots it was an express when it really wasn't. You paint it on the side, but that isn't the truth. The certificate is the truth, and it says USAirways. So if it says USAirways on the certificate of MDA, not MDA, and the boys flying the jets have USAirways ID's, then maybe those pilots weren't furloughed after all were they????So I do believe, if ALPA does come out, like I think they are going to do, and maybe lay the blame on the ALPA reps on the property, and maybe let them swing in the wind rather than be liable for $$$ the MDA guys are going to have a real big lever to use any way they want. Money, or the Nic. Maybe both..........

 

[Black Swan]

Exactly..................

This is the way every one believes it was, most importantly,the Arbitrator did.

Because Alpa decides to pay MDA guys a bunch of money does not mean that the Nic will change. Tell me this, which do you want more? The Money from Alpa or the Nic to change? Whether you get money or not you have to Appeal your case to Nicolau who retains jurisdiction on the list. This has not been done to my knowledge since May of 07'. Could it be that its because he already heard it all and still placed these pilots where he did.?? Its in the transcripts that your Reps you put in place didn't want you to see.

Sorry you have probably heard this all before.

Flip

And what happens when the jury believed the testimony of someone in a trial, and later that witness comes out and says the testimony was false? Or new technology such as DNA proves otherwise? I do believe there is what is called a new trial.

 

[CallawayGolf]

And what happens when the jury believed the testimony of someone in a trial, and later that witness comes out and says the testimony was false? Or new technology such as DNA proves otherwise? I do believe there is what is called a new trial.

There is a world of difference between a criminal trial and two parties going to binding arbitration. The arbitrator retains jurisdiction over the award and only he can decide if the new facts warrant a change in the award. In the highly unlikely event that he decides to modify the award, do you really think he is going to modify it so as to give the east DOH? Answer: not even a remote chance in Fantasy Land. The award stays, the injunction stays and the east pilots have once again wasted money chasing a fools errand with no reward in the end.

 

[electricjet98]

So I do believe, if ALPA does come out, like I think they are going to do, and maybe lay the blame on the ALPA reps on the property, and maybe let them swing in the wind rather than be liable for $$$ the MDA guys are going to have a real big lever to use any way they want. Money, or the Nic. Maybe both..........

If we give your post and opinion a pass and look at how everyone on the MDA list may be re-intergrated...how do you intergrate the guys that actually believed it a furlough and went elsewhere to work while waiting for recall to AAA, without changing the order of the AAA list prior to the merger? How do you intergrate the "off-the-street" pilots hired at MDA when they were never mainline?

And why wouldn't the MDA pilots be integrated on a similar basis as the "Golden 517" pilots who were placed at the top of the list, except of course, as regional pilots the MDA guys would be placed at the bottom...exactly where Nicolau placed them?

 

[Black Swan]

There is a world of difference between a criminal trial and two parties going to binding arbitration. The arbitrator retains jurisdiction over the award and only he can decide if the new facts warrant a change in the award. In the highly unlikely event that he decides to modify the award, do you really think he is going to modify it so as to give the east DOH? Answer: not even a remote chance in Fantasy Land. The award stays, the injunction stays and the east pilots have once again wasted money chasing a fools errand with no reward in the end.

If this arbitration is based on incorrect information, then is it likely to get amended, or thrown out? Maybe the top 2/3 stays the same. I don't even purport to know what happens. But the bottom group? If they were never really off the mainline list, and Nic based the bottom on Joe Monda when he really is not the bottom guy after all? Your guess is as good as mine. A fools errand? I don't think so. We will just have to wait and see, just like the 9th.

 

[CallawayGolf]

If this arbitration is based on incorrect information, then is it likely to get amended, or thrown out? Maybe the top 2/3 stays the same. I don't even purport to know what happens. But the bottom group? If they were never really off the mainline list, and Nic based the bottom on Joe Monda when he really is not the bottom guy after all? Your guess is as good as mine. A fools errand? I don't think so. We will just have to wait and see, just like the 9th.

So you’re guessing that the MDA could result in maybe the top 2/3 remaining unchanged and in the bottom 1/3 the west pilots maintaining their seniority position but the bottom 1/3 of east pilots reshuffling their names around. If that’s the scope and such a reshuffling of the bottom east pilots is worth the legal expenses to get the list modified, then I understand it might be worth it for them. The truth is that east pilots on this board as well as USAPA have been sending a message for quite a while that the outcome of this could unshackle them from their legal obligations under the NIC which is simply not a claim that can be supported. If that’s what this is about, then it is a fools errand just like the rest of USAPA’s actions thus far.

 

[hp_fa]

If this arbitration is based on incorrect information, then is it likely to get amended, or thrown out?

So you would be seeking relief from a decision that was never honored in the first place?