US Pilots Labor Discussion 5/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Piedmont1984]

On a slightly different tack - if the intent of the company does not matter in the MDA case, then the intent of the company should also not matter in the LOA93 case - only the written document.

 

[Flippin43]

Well there were provisions for a senior non furloughed guy to go fly a jet at MDA.

In addition, I don't think we are talking about the reordering of where the pilots name sit on the individual lists, or even the off the street hires.

I think it's more in the order of, X amount of US pilots were ratioed in with X amount of AWA guys. How specific did Nic go into category class seperation, don't remember. But it would depend on the arguments of treating the 170 as a mainline airplane, or a regional airplane, but current factors would show that the 170 is similar to the 190, which has some sr guys flying capt or f/o while those sr. to them are still on the 73 or AB.

Ahhh but the west guys know how NIC would handle it, and there is no reason to try see what would happen. Oh yes, there was a mistake but no reason to try and see what would be different if that mistake wasn't present.

Really don't understand why you guys don't comprehend what Swann is saying. Well yes, I guess I do, it's all about the lottery ticket.....stand strong......HA

Its not about how much the jets are the same. MDA was flying that was not desired or they would not have hired off the street to do it. AAA pilots furloughed from flying "narrow body" jets were in a different status. they did not hold the same status (a job) as those flying AAA narrowbody jets. Their (MDA pilots) jobs on the AAA certificate were treated different by the Company, Your LOCAL Union and even your own fellow pilots on both sides of the MDA "fence"

There is a reason that West pilots feel comfotable with how Nicolau would treat this. Its because we read it in the transcripts, he has heard all they same arguements you and others here propose and he came up with the list. Go ask Carey or Kirch and the others, they tried , interestingly they said many of the same things you repeat here.

Why do you believe he would do anything different now.

Flip

 

[767jetz]

If you are willing then to take the shortcut, then you have to now understand that the price for speediness is the fact the pilots now are still Mainline.

I really do not understand how guys are not getting the importance of this.Who cares what the intent of MDA was?

I'm not disputing that one way or the other. I'm just saying that US ALPA at the time had an opportunity to make that clear and use it as leverage with the company. HOWEVER, if they discussed this with the company, and for some reason still AGREED to allow the "shortcut" with the understanding that those pilots were still furloughed, then you can't go back and erase it after the fact.

For example, maybe the company said, "look, if you don't let us do it this way and put MDA on our current certificate with the stipulation that it be off limits to non-furloughed pilots, since we need to furlough "x" number of pilots to get our costs in line, and blah, blah, blah... THEN we'll do it the hard way and hire off the street and none of the furloughs will get a job with MDA." Maybe US ALPA looked at this and decided (without membership input) that this was the way to go. Well, then the argument now is moot. It's like getting scope relief from the contract. We own the metal but you're not flying it. It's exactly what AirLingus/UA is doing (or trying to do) right now because AirLingus pilots do not have the scope language to prevent it.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Why do you believe he would do anything different now.

Flip

Because while George Nicolau started out as an independent and neutral third-party arbitrator, his heart has warmed significantly to the east pilot’s plight. Surely he feels that he got the award wrong and would love an opportunity to make things right once again for the downtrodden east pilots. The fact that they have incessantly maligned his award, his character and his cognitive reasoning is of no consequence to his new way of thinking warmly towards those who despise him.

 

[Flippin43]

Well, I would agree with you if MDA was put on its' own certificate as the company originally intended and attempted. They did not because it would take too long. So they just added it to the mainline cert. and it was just another type in the fleet. And this is where the technicalities should get them stopped cold. Tried the first way, takes too long. If you are willing then to take the shortcut, then you have to now understand that the price for speediness is the fact the pilots now are still Mainline. I say again, no matter what you originally intended, this structure kept the pilots on Mainline. Not furloughed. So I don't buy your argument what they intended. How can you furlough a pilot and still have him flying another type on the identical certificate? You can't. I really do not understand how guys are not getting the importance of this.Who cares what the intent of MDA was? If they didn't structure it as a wholly owned, it never was! The only way that argument flies is to have it structured like Piedmont of PSA. Separate certificates. The pilots dumped out of mainline to these were furloughed, as they flew on another certificate.

BS,

You don't have to buy it!!!!!!! The Arbitrator saw the difference that MDA was. It was treated as a different operation. They restricted NON FURLOUGHED pilots from doing any of that flying for crying out loud! Where is there a restriction like that now at mainline. It was like someone else said, a place for some Furloughed guys to land softly. If it was truly just another Mainline jet as you claim. How is it the the first 400 (#pilots at MDA right) furloughed pilots were not just forced to accept it or quit and rest of the Furloughed guys told to await a recall to the 170. It the things like this that made MDA different from Mainline which the Arbitrator saw. Yes he heard all this back in Jan-Feb 07' Nothing new here at all.

Flip

 

[Black Swan]

I'm not disputing that one way or the other. I'm just saying that US ALPA at the time had an opportunity to make that clear and use it as leverage with the company. HOWEVER, if they discussed this with the company, and for some reason still AGREED to allow the "shortcut" with the understanding that those pilots were still furloughed, then you can't go back and erase it after the fact.

For example, maybe the company said, "look, if you don't let us do it this way and put MDA on our current certificate with the stipulation that it be off limits to non-furloughed pilots, since we need to furlough "x" number of pilots to get our costs in line, and blah, blah, blah... THEN we'll do it the hard way and hire off the street and none of the furloughs will get a job with MDA." Maybe US ALPA looked at this and decided (without membership input) that this was the way to go. Well, then the argument now is moot. It's like getting scope relief from the contract. We own the metal but you're not flying it. It's exactly what AirLingus/UA is doing (or trying to do) right now because AirLingus pilots do not have the scope language to prevent it.

You, from UAL and a totally different ALPA, would have used the leverage. Our guys were conspiring with the company. We had numerous concessionary deals and workouts with the company time and again. I fault our guys for even accepting much of it with the ballot, but they did. Our MEC was working hand in hand with the company. For years. I know most on this board believe dumping ALPA was all geared about the Nic. You are wrong. It was things like MDA and the pension handling that lit the fuse.

 

[Black Swan]

BS,

You don't have to buy it!!!!!!! The Arbitrator saw the difference that MDA was. It was treated as a different operation. They restricted NON FURLOUGHED pilots from doing any of that flying for crying out loud! Where is there a restriction like that now at mainline. It was like someone else said, a place for some Furloughed guys to land softly. If it was truly just another Mainline jet as you claim. How is it the the first 400 (#pilots at MDA right) furloughed pilots were not just forced to accept it or quit and rest of the Furloughed guys told to await a recall to the 170. It the things like this that made MDA different from Mainline which the Arbitrator saw. Yes he heard all this back in Jan-Feb 07' Nothing new here at all.

Flip

No insult here, but you are missing it. Somebody else who was in MDA please give the board your input. Maybe this will clear up some of the points. The part you really don't grasp is that part about the non furloughed not being able to bid MDA.

 

[Flippin43]

When the West flew the Dash 8. How was that structured? Mainline or an express type? Same certificate or another, like Mesa?

BS,

6 Dash-8's were retained after BK in 91, (they even used to be considered just another A/C that paid the same) Furloughed pilots were allowed to fly it for less pay or pass altoghether. Same certificate as Mainline. No Dash pilot got to fly a jet until a recall letter was recieved.

Sound Familiar...................

Flip

 

[CallawayGolf]

You, from UAL and a totally different ALPA, would have used the leverage. Our guys were conspiring with the company. We had numerous concessionary deals and workouts with the company time and again. I fault our guys for even accepting much of it with the ballot, but they did. Our MEC was working hand in hand with the company. For years. I know most on this board believe dumping ALPA was all geared about the Nic. You are wrong. It was things like MDA and the pension handling that lit the fuse.

Nothing like going from bad (ALPA) to horrendous (USAPA). Better to have gone all the way and decertified the union altogether.

 

[Black Swan]

BS,

6 Dash-8's were retained after BK in 91, (they even used to be considered just another A/C that paid the same) Furloughed pilots were allowed to fly it for less pay or pass altoghether. Same certificate as Mainline. No Dash pilot got to fly a jet until a recall letter was recieved.

Sound Familiar...................

Flip

Familiar, somewhat. The difference being you RETAINED the Dash 8. Then put it into something else, or structured into something clearly understood. Like we did with Metrojet. The E-175 was a new aircraft type just ordered, with the company intending to have it flown under a different certificate. The big difference being the sunshine you had on your agreement, and ours obscured.

 

[Waketurbulence]

If "furloughed" MDA pilots were never "furloughed", why would they have to be recalled?

Why did they have the ability to "ACCEPT OR PASS" if they weren't furloughed???

The APL seniority list can be used to determine who was the most junior Mainline AAA furloughee that was recalled to mainline service. This pilot is XX XXXX, with a AAA seniority number of 4599. He was recalled on 7/09/07. Listed below this pilot are the CEL pilots. These were pilots that never worked for Mainline AAA, but were new hires or transfers from other wholly owned carriers to the MDA division of AAA.

When AAA began furloughing pilots in October of 2001 the APL (Affected Pilots List) was created. All furloughed pilots were placed on this list. The intent of the list was simply to govern the order of recalls and/or placement of pilots into the Jets-For-Jobs program in order of seniority.

This list is useful now because it shows when the furloughed pilots were recalled back to mainline service. In order to determine what equipment these pilots were recalled to, you would have to reference the Mainline System Bid Awards above.

I know I know, facts...but don't let them get in the way of your delusion.....

 

[usabusdriver]

From what I have been told, by another arbitrator. The only way this award can be changed, is by the arbitrator himself. I know some of you have mentioned this. Now, if ALPA Nat'l admits there was no furlough to a certain group of guys assumed to be, maybe it is enough. If there was a fraud perpetrated, it could be opened. All up to the arbitrator. I am not sure if there is any other avenue if it were proven there was fraud. Regardless, this is going to slow any contract going forward, as there are going to be another group that is going to want to wait and see where this goes, if it does go.

I... Reading the NIC he certainly did not understand the dicotomy of what the MDA issue was.

...

BS & Crz,

Not to intrude into your creative thought processes but this issue was dealt with by the board. I cannot see a wholesale change in the Nicolau Award because of litigation by the MDA pilots.

From the award, see below, you can see the MDA issue was discussed and considered.

That is the question of the CEL pilots. Some 105 such
pilots (4993-5098) appear on the US Airways May 19, 2005 Certified
Seniority List. However, none had flown for the mainline; all were
pilots at Mid-Atlantic Airways, a regional carrier designed to be a US
Airways wholly-owned subsidiary, but actually flown at all times during
its short existence on the mainline's operating certificate as a
division of US Airways.

 

[nic4us]

[I know I know, facts...but don't let them get in the way of your delusion.....

I would like to know one fact regarding MDA.

Were the names of the MDA pilots included in the Nic award or not?

I am under the impression that they are in the award, ranked by their USAirways seniority, just like every othe east pilot.

The debate wether they were furloughed or not is moot, it does not change their position on the east list. Therefore, it would not change their position on the Nic.

One thing is for certain. Mainline or subsidary, furloughed or active, no MDA pilot expected to have their original USAirways seniority reordered by working at MDA.

There is no reason to expect a change in the Nic or even a revisiting by Nicolau himself. Because the MDA pilots status ( furloughed or not) does not change their seniority on the east's certified list.

 

[767jetz]

You, from UAL and a totally different ALPA, would have used the leverage. Our guys were conspiring with the company. We had numerous concessionary deals and workouts with the company time and again. I fault our guys for even accepting much of it with the ballot, but they did. Our MEC was working hand in hand with the company. For years.

That's kins what I'm saying. If your union signed off on it, is there really anything you can do about it now? I think the answer is, probably not.

 

[Freebird]

That's kins what I'm saying. If your union signed off on it, is there really anything you can do about it now? I think the answer is, probably not.

Always a catch or small gothcha that Usapa hopes to capitalize on. Nothing can be done legitimately, can it?

So now, you want to reshuffle. What happened to DOH? Which is it?

USAPA costs ALL USAIRWAYS EMPLOYEES !!!!!!! a waste of time and money !!!