US Pilots Labor Discussion 5/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

There is absolutely no reason to think any portion of the Nic would be reordered due to the MDA issue.

Even if all MDA pilots were to be considered mainline, so what? The east list started with their number 1 guy, ran through Monda, then ran thru the rest of the pilots who had been hired at USAirways, and had any kind of recall right. Everyone who worked at USAirways, wether furloughed or active was on that list in seniority order, regardless of MDA status.

That list was merged with the AWA list to get the Nic. We all heard the story, the pilots were integrated by ratios within the categorty of aircraft they were flying and the staffing model for each aircraft by airline.

The MDA pilots are on the Nic list already. It is not like they were omitted. They are on the list in their respective position, because of their original position on the USAirways list, not because of their employment status.

The fact that they were junior to furloughed mainline pilots does not help the matter or their cause and would have no bearing on their now being junior to Odell.

 

[nic4us]

MDA had what...400 pilots??? Soooooo you take the AWA bottom guy, (dave?) and he goes on top of the US new bottom guy, 400 numbers further down.

Hey, I got an idea, since everyone is so willing to reorder list around here. I say we move Dave up 400 numbers were he should have been in the first place. Then we make Nic4us #7 behind Piedmont, Pi-brat, 924PS, Cubfan, busdriver and eastus. Then the 7 of us do rock-paper-scissors to determine who has to fly on weekends and who gets to fly with Cleary on his currency flights.

 

[Flippin43]

43 Here is the way it was. Everybody below Monda got the notice of furlough. Our ALPA MEC was working with the company to use MDA as a "soft landing" The entire deal was originally floated with the story that the furloughed would get the same pay as mainline. Hence the soft landing. The MEC worked hand in hand with the company to build the MDA concept. The company then sought a separate certificate for MDA, which would enable them to create another wholly owned so to speak. This required a new certificate. The company had ordered the jets. They needed the cert. The company was unable to get the cert. in a timely fashion from the Feds. It takes a long time to get a new certificate for an airline. Sometimes years, proving runs, on and on. The FAA said the only way to get the jets up and running was to just add them to the fleet. Just like adding an Airbus or a 737. No new certificate, no delay. Just go to a certified sim. and get the types and you go. All this took place without the line pilots realizing it. How is the line pilot ever to get the info? The ones who worked with the company? The AAA Mec and ALPA. They knew the whole deal, and went with it.They played along. So out went the furlough notices, with the MDA jobs offered to the "furloughed pilots" They went to the jets that said Express on them. Mainline pilots not furloughed could not get a seat as a capt. at MDA as it was for furloughed pilots only. All a smokescreen. There was NO MDA certificate. It was the USAirways cert. that the 175's flew on. Not like PSA, Piedmont, , etc. with their own certificates. I saw the MDA id's. They said USAirways on them. They had to. If they did not, it would be a fake ID put out by the company. Meanwhile, the pay rate conveniently changes. Lower. Now guys figure they can do better at North American, corporate, Flight Safety and on and on. They pass on MDA. Enough guys pass on it that it actually has to hire off the street. These guys actually considered themselves lucky, as when recalls came, they had to get recalled to mainline. Now why would the company have to recall these bottom guys at MDA to mainline you ask? Simple. Because the truth of the matter was they were hired at USAirways mainline all along, owing to the certificate saying it.And the ID's. As for the narrowbody F/O going to a capt seat on the 190? Most won't do it because it is marginally better pay wise. Does this clear this up at all? Now, where I am going is this. The fact these guys were never actually furloughed was obscured by the company and our MEC, and ALPA Nat'l. The list was given to Nicolau with the premise of these pilots being on the street. All false. If the MDA guys get this admitted by ALPA nat'l as they believe, and soon- this is going to make this case abundantly clear that Joe Monda was NOT the bottom guy. And where do you now define the bottom when you have guys that passed on MDA as they believed the lie of it being express, and did not remain on the mainline list because of false information passed to them. Now they have off the street guys on the mainline list unbeknownst to them.Where does the furloughed line get drawn now? You can't rectify this simply. Does this call for the entire deal to be re done? The info given by the company and our ALPA to Nic was false. Monda was not the bottom man. Who was now? You tell me. This, if it comes to ALPA admitting these guys were mainline, is a whole new game. I have no idea where it goes, but there are going to be some serious issues with the Nic. I honestly cannot say how it gets cleared up. Ideas?

BS,

:You still have not explained the requirement to get a "recall" letter to go from MDA to Mainline as well as no one being allowed to go from Mainline to MDA when it existed. This does not exist now, as there are 190 Capts that are senior to Junior Narrow body F/O's. I knew a guy who was doing this. This did not exist at MDA. A person senior enough to be working at Mainline (not furloughed) could not go to fly at MDA in any capacity. Those at MDA could not fly a Mainline Jet until their Recall occurred. Why is this so difficult to understand. All the other stuff you talk about is surely true, but so is the restriction on these pilots had that prevented them from flying a Mainline jet until a RECALL letter was sent to them. What part of that do I have incorrect................


You and others seem to think that Nicolau was oblivious to this issue. This whole episode was discussed at the Arbitration Hearings. The West even filed a Brief specific to this subject called the CEL Brief. Your merger committee tried then to do as you wish someone to do now. They tried to tell Nicolau that Monda wasn't the bottom guy etc. This happened. Its in the transcripts or ask your Merger Com guys that did this work. To be more clear!

Nicolau knew then what you just told me you want him to consider now. This would not be new information for him to hear. He considered all that you point out and still placed these pilots where he did. Let me know if I can make this any more clear.

If you win your lawsuit with Alpa and get a bunch of money good for you, i hope you do. But when you go and take any of what you think is "new" information to Nicolau, You will find he has already heard it.3.5 years ago! And nothing will change.

Now if you can prove the MDA pilots could fly a Mainline Jet ie 737,A-320,767,A-330, without ever needing to recieve a RECALL letter, you may be on to something.


Flip

 

[Crzipilot]

Well there were provisions for a senior non furloughed guy to go fly a jet at MDA.

In addition, I don't think we are talking about the reordering of where the pilots name sit on the individual lists, or even the off the street hires.

I think it's more in the order of, X amount of US pilots were ratioed in with X amount of AWA guys. How specific did Nic go into category class seperation, don't remember. But it would depend on the arguments of treating the 170 as a mainline airplane, or a regional airplane, but current factors would show that the 170 is similar to the 190, which has some sr guys flying capt or f/o while those sr. to them are still on the 73 or AB.

Ahhh but the west guys know how NIC would handle it, and there is no reason to try see what would happen. Oh yes, there was a mistake but no reason to try and see what would be different if that mistake wasn't present.

Really don't understand why you guys don't comprehend what Swann is saying. Well yes, I guess I do, it's all about the lottery ticket.....stand strong......HA

 

[Crzipilot]

I think around page 29 of the NIC award, he describes the reasoning for putting Odell one number senior to Colello. Which extending that idea....

MDA was mainline. MDA contained 400?? pilots. so the bottom of the list should be 400 numbers greater on the US side. The only place Nic touched the MDA deal was that MDA was furloughed pilots. Well if ALPA admits MDA wasn't really furloughed pilots, and they went along with the shell game the company played. Then obviously there was an improper recall, (with hiring off the street while people were furloughed) I.E. there was never an official recall, take it or leave it to MDA. If such had happened in accordance with the contract, the US seniority list would definitely look different than the one submitted. Reading the NIC he certainly did not understand the dicotomy of what the MDA issue was.

400 more numbers on the bottom, resulting in probably quite a different ratio, might have actually got you guys the ability to cash in your lottery ticket.....


I'm still enamored with the fact that he noted the discrepency in staffing levels, but only brushed aside his answer as to not adjusting for the differences with a simple of comment of "don't want to go into it" Strange....

 

[Pi brat]

Let's say your MDA history is correct. Nicolau created a status and category list. Where would E-175 pilots go on a status and category list? At the bottom right above furloughed pilots. I don't see how this development would change the list at all. If you are furloughed you go to the bottom, if you are an RJ pilot you go to the bottom. You can't tell me that if Airways bought Mesa, they would not staple them to the bottom of the list.

If Nicolau were to revisit this arbitration, he would first have to have both sides accept the first result. He would not give the East a free shot just to reject the result once again.

I don't believe any MDA action will cause big changes, if any, to the Nic, but why do you say that "if you are an RJ pilot you go to the bottom"? Are DL MD-80 pilots on the bottom? There is a bigger difference in size between a 747-400 and a MD-80 than an A319 and E175. Or is it pay that determines this your mind? Status? Prestige? The E175 is bigger and more a capable airplane than the F-28 was, and it was on the mainline. The top e175 capt was at a higher pay and quality of life than a new hire in indoc. The whole US pilot group was sold a bill of goods on MDA. Our pensions paid for the POSs and they should have been on the mainline(which in reality they were), with normal contract provisions and rates. In the rush to get something out the company and ALPA screwed this and the pilots. I hope they at least get some cash.

 

[Pi brat]

Hey, I got an idea, since everyone is so willing to reorder list around here. I say we move Dave up 400 numbers were he should have been in the first place. Then we make Nic4us #7 behind Piedmont, Pi-brat, 924PS, Cubfan, busdriver and eastus. Then the 7 of us do rock-paper-scissors to determine who has to fly on weekends and who gets to fly with Cleary on his currency flights.

No, no, no. If the list is to be reordered, put me in my rightful place-#1!

 

[Black Swan]

Refresh my memory please.

Wasn't there a seniority list certification process that was accomplished by the respective merger committees? And the result of that was a true and correct list presented by the merger committees to arbitrator Nicolau?

If no one challenged the order of the list prior to the result, why would Nicolau reconsider his decision?

Even if ALPA admits to whatever, I doubt the list will be reordered. And even if it was, it would not be DOH.

You are correct up to the point of "the result of that was a true and correct list..." How is a list true and correct if it lists pilots being furloughed when they are actually flying an aircraft on the mainline certificate and not a separate one???

 

[Black Swan]

Refresh my memory please.

Wasn't there a seniority list certification process that was accomplished by the respective merger committees? And the result of that was a true and correct list presented by the merger committees to arbitrator Nicolau?

If no one challenged the order of the list prior to the result, why would Nicolau reconsider his decision?

Even if ALPA admits to whatever, I doubt the list will be reordered. And even if it was, it would not be DOH.

And nobody challenged it because they did not know about the certificate being the same. Did you know? Only the Company and the ALPA brothers knew. The company had to divulge it to the AAA Mec and ALPA Nat'l. It was kept secret.

 

[N924PS]

And nobody challenged it because they did not know about the certificate being the same. Did you know? Only the Company and the ALPA brothers knew. The company had to divulge it to the AAA Mec and ALPA Nat'l. It was kept secret.

Yes I did know.

But I don't recall it being a big secret. I believe by the merger Policy Initiation Date everyone involved knew MDA was on the USAirways FAA certificate.
It was never a secret as I recall. I had friends that were in the training department at MDA and they knew it since they were working with the Feds.

 

[767jetz]

How is a list true and correct if it lists pilots being furloughed when they are actually flying an aircraft on the mainline certificate and not a separate one???

I think this will come down to interpretation (as with many laws). How do you define "mainline aircraft?"

Some will understandably argue that if it's on the certificate it's a mainline aircraft. Others will say there were enough conditions agreed upon by company and union to clearly define the intent that it was not a mainline aircraft. (ie: only furloughs; recall notice before going back to other aircraft; etc, etc.)

IMO the former argument of being on the certificate, while a relatively strong one, will not prevail, since the intent of MDA was clearly to be a separate operation and provide a "soft landing" for those furloughed.

If that was clear between the company and the union, regardless of what the line pilot knew or did not know, then it won't change a thing. The only recourse this may result in is some damages from ALPA, but not reordering the list. Certainly not a new arbitration or DOH. Additionally, even if it was an error by the union, they will point to the fact that it was US ALPA (ie: US pilots themselves) who made the error or did not disclose the details to their own members, and that no one contested it when they had the opportunity. Ironically, since USAPA inherits everything from ALPA, they may even be liable for damages.

 

[Black Swan]

I think this will come down to interpretation (as with many laws). How do you define "mainline aircraft?"

Some will understandably argue that if it's on the certificate it's a mainline aircraft. Others will say there were enough conditions agreed upon by company and union to clearly define the intent that it was not a mainline aircraft. (ie: only furloughs; recall notice before going back to other aircraft; etc, etc.)

IMO the former argument of being on the certificate, while a relatively strong one, will not prevail, since the intent of MDA was clearly to be a separate operation and provide a "soft landing" for those furloughed.

If that was clear between the company and the union, regardless of what the line pilot knew or did not know, then it won't change a thing. The only recourse this may result in is some damages from ALPA, but not reordering the list. Certainly not a new arbitration or DOH. Additionally, even if it was an error by the union, they will point to the fact that it was US ALPA (ie: US pilots themselves) who made the error or did not disclose the details to their own members, and that no one contested it when they had the opportunity. Ironically, since USAPA inherits everything from ALPA, they may even be liable for damages.

Well, I would agree with you if MDA was put on its' own certificate as the company originally intended and attempted. They did not because it would take too long. So they just added it to the mainline cert. and it was just another type in the fleet. And this is where the technicalities should get them stopped cold. Tried the first way, takes too long. If you are willing then to take the shortcut, then you have to now understand that the price for speediness is the fact the pilots now are still Mainline. I say again, no matter what you originally intended, this structure kept the pilots on Mainline. Not furloughed. So I don't buy your argument what they intended. How can you furlough a pilot and still have him flying another type on the identical certificate? You can't. I really do not understand how guys are not getting the importance of this.Who cares what the intent of MDA was? If they didn't structure it as a wholly owned, it never was! The only way that argument flies is to have it structured like Piedmont of PSA. Separate certificates. The pilots dumped out of mainline to these were furloughed, as they flew on another certificate.

 

[Black Swan]

The huge argument at stake is whether or not these guys were furloughed. The company and ALPA stated they were. They were NEVER furloughed if they were on a jet under the mainline certificate. This might open a lot of doors. Not saying which ones, but it is just the start of many more issues for ALPA and the company with regards to how these guys were handled.

 

[Black Swan]

When the West flew the Dash 8. How was that structured? Mainline or an express type? Same certificate or another, like Mesa?

 

[Crzipilot]

Of course there is not an understanding of implications of an improper filling of the Mainline 170's, it would burst the bubble that Nic is the absolute end all be all and there is no reason to revisit the chance that the Mainline list was submitted incorrectly.

Yes, many people knew by the PID date, but I believe also, ALPA and such would never officially admit what had transpired, to keep them from implicating themselves in the MDA lawsuit. I'm sure there were many backdoor issues swept under the rug with the premise of that lawsuit hanging over ALPA's head.

Just as a J4J grievance that was won regarding the training holds of recalled pilots at the J4J carriers. During ALPA's tenure, ML Alpa told the J4J pilots to pack sand, USAPA magically ran the grievance and won.......dunno what the difference was...