US Pilots Labor Discussion 5/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

Ok. A pilot I know very intimately was hired in Sept 1986 and the guy one number senior to him on the Nic was hired in December, 1999. That's 13 years. Under the east list, he would retire number 115 system seniority.
Under the nic, 1100 westies have bidding rights senior to him. This effectively will lock him out of a 330 seat forever, maybe even a group 2 blockholder seat....
It's no wonder the easties are upset.

An integrated list that responds solely to statistical absolutes (for example), with no broader view of the shortand long-term impact on career expectations, might be considered nominally fair but realistically inequitable. Too, a process that ignores reality and bypasses facts, that pursues, instead, an illusory notion of “something for everyone,” could hardly be fair. In constructing this list, we have inquired as to where the respective groups(8) have been and we have made reasoned judgments as to where they were going. We have attempted, at all times, to recognize reasonable expectations of both parties while, in all instances, rejecting proposals that, however facially logical, resulted in untenable windfalls. The resulting list neither realizes nor maintains each and every career expectations, nor could it do so. No recitation of career expectations ever includes a merger, and no merger can leave all hopes and plans unaffected. The most that can be
said, and it can be said with some assurance in this case, is that the merger of these

8 As in all such exercises, the focus here is necessarily on groups, not on any individual pilot. Inevitably, and unavoidably, there will be perceived disparities and mismatches on individual levels, on both sides, under the merged list.

The Pilots of Northwest Airlines, Inc.
and The Pilots of Delta Air Lines, Inc.
Page 16 of 32

particular companies will result in a uniquely powerful entity, by virtue of the contributions of both carriers, that is capable of better withstanding the substantial challenges of the current environment than if the Companies had chosen to go it alone.

I suggest that you educate yourself about other mergers. We have heard all the whining for three years about how unfair the list is.

Did you ever look closely at the AAA proposed list? Take a look the west pilot just senior to that person that you are intimate with. The senior pilot hired in 9/86 is listed as being number 2300 on the east list. After they were listed as being number 2372. So according to the generous and what passes for fairness on the east you would allow 73 west pilot into the top 2300 spots. How about explaining how that is not a windfall and a devastation of career expectations for a west pilots?

The above quote is from the DAL/NWA merger not ours. Read it carefully this is what three arbitrators had to say about what you are shedding all those tears about. This is how all mergers happen, Nicolau was not picking on you, he was not being mean to you, he is not senile he was balancing the integration.

One last thing. At the time of the merger your intimate friend had almost 19 years on the property but was still an F/O. If your “friend” makes it to 65 they will have almost 35 years on property but according to you will still not be able to hold a 330 spot. That does not sound unfair that sounds like the worlds worse career choice. After 19 years you should have abandoned the sinking ship and found something better to do.

I think that is the whole point why the easties are upset. Poor career decision and no one, Nicolau, the west, the court is going to let you make up for your bad choice with our careers. This is the reality, Nicolau is the list. If you can not accept that reality I suggest that you look into trade school and find a different career.

BTW on that list, the two pilot that are next to each other both listed as 737 F/O's. Because that is the seniority that each could hold. What the east wanted was a to go from 737 F/O to being senior to 1700 west pilots. You wanted to go from being next to a 737 F/O to being senior to our senior 757 capt. You do understand the irony of complaining about windfall right?

 

[aquagreen73s]

One last thing. At the time of the merger your intimate friend had almost 19 years on the property but was still an F/O. If your “friend” makes it to 65 they will have almost 35 years on property but according to you will still not be able to hold a 330 spot. That does not sound unfair that sounds like the worlds worse career choice. After 19 years you should have abandoned the sinking ship and found something better to do.

Interestingly, had a SWA captain who was former East give me a ride to work about a month ago. He quit in 2000 and went to fly for Herb. No animosity from this man at all. He was happy with his choice.

 

[Freebird]

I suggest that you educate yourself about other mergers. We have heard all the whining for three years about how unfair the list is.

Did you ever look closely at the AAA proposed list? Take a look the west pilot just senior to that person that you are intimate with. The senior pilot hired in 9/86 is listed as being number 2300 on the east list. After they were listed as being number 2372. So according to the generous and what passes for fairness on the east you would allow 73 west pilot into the top 2300 spots. How about explaining how that is not a windfall and a devastation of career expectations for a west pilots?

The above quote is from the DAL/NWA merger not ours. Read it carefully this is what three arbitrators had to say about what you are shedding all those tears about. This is how all mergers happen, Nicolau was not picking on you, he was not being mean to you, he is not senile he was balancing the integration.

One last thing. At the time of the merger your intimate friend had almost 19 years on the property but was still an F/O. If your “friend” makes it to 65 they will have almost 35 years on property but according to you will still not be able to hold a 330 spot. That does not sound unfair that sounds like the worlds worse career choice. After 19 years you should have abandoned the sinking ship and found something better to do.

I think that is the whole point why the easties are upset. Poor career decision and no one, Nicolau, the west, the court is going to let you make up for your bad choice with our careers. This is the reality, Nicolau is the list. If you can not accept that reality I suggest that you look into trade school and find a different career.

BTW on that list, the two pilot that are next to each other both listed as 737 F/O's. Because that is the seniority that each could hold. What the east wanted was a to go from 737 F/O to being senior to 1700 west pilots. You wanted to go from being next to a 737 F/O to being senior to our senior 757 capt. You do understand the irony of complaining about windfall right?

Nicely said.

 

[Phoenix]

..... I will take a closer look and see how many east pilots are already occupying top pay 330 seats that should be held by West pilots. That info could be interesting in the damages trial.

Please, post often on this board.

And more importantly, if you ever come out east, please personally inform as many east pilots as you can.

 

[Phoenix]

Interestingly, had a SWA captain who was former East give me a ride to work about a month ago. He quit in 2000 and went to fly for Herb. No animosity from this man at all. He was happy with his choice.

Are you asking for permission to leave? No one is stopping if you either.

 

[Pi brat]

I know I guy that went from number 1 to 518 on the West, so what's your point?

That Nicolau screwed it from up top to bottom? This post backs that up.

 

[nic4us]

I know a guy who would have been number one on the list and under nic went to number 450, see him every morning when I shave.

You shave every morning?

The guy looking back at me when I get around to shaving, actually will end up with the same number on the day he retires and it ain't #1. No east pilots younger than him were put in front of him. However, many hundreds of east pilots within 3 years of his age were put in front of him. So the end effect is that rather than being in the top 10% for over an entire decade, he does not hit that mark until he has like 3 years to go. Instead of being in the top 100 for more than 5 years, he will hit that mark about 4 months before retirement. Instead of being in the top 20 his last few years, he will get there weeks before he retires.

He is not looking for sympathy, especially from east guys who spent decades moving backwards, just pointing out this supposed "windfall" is not all the east makes it out to be.

 

[nic4us]

Please, post often on this board.

And more importantly, if you ever come out east, please personally inform as many east pilots as you can.

Cmon, you know I post often.

I am in the east all the time, remember 24% of the West's flying is on "what would traditionally be considered an east route".

So what would you like me to inform the east pilots of? That usapa is setting them up for possible losses in income in the form of damages assesments.

 

[Freebird]

Please, post often on this board.

And more importantly, if you ever come out east, please personally inform as many east pilots as you can.

They should be easy to recognize. They are miserable, downtrodden, scowling, and embroiled in an internal battle of entitlement. Which they have already lost.

(Actually most of the East guys I talk too are pretty cool. Especially the Captains. They are ready to move on from this and get a new contract.)

 

[cleardirect]

Since the MDA case seems to be the latest tactic for correcting the east pilots failure to negotiate/mediate/arbitrate the facts need to come out.

I know how the east pilot have this aversion to reading source documents and learning the facts but it is necessary in order to learn what the MDA pilots are asking for. MONEY!!!! That is what they are asking the court for. Nowhere in the complaint does it ask for any alteration of the Nicolau. They can’t, because the court does not have that ability.

This is the remedy being asked for.

a) On behalf of all Plaintiffs, against defendants AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL and DUANE E. WOERTH, as President of Air Line Pilots Association, International, as to the claims set forth in
Case 1:05-cv-04751-NG-VVP Document 63 Filed 04/18/2008 Page 12 of 16
Supplemental Count I, such sum as may be determined at trial, but in no event less than One Hundred Seventy Five Million ($175,000,000.00) Dollars;
- together with the costs and disbursements of this action, applicable interest, attorneys’ fees, and such other and further relief as the Court may deem just and proper.

First, $175 million. Divide that by the 60,000 ALPA members is about $3000.00 per person. I tell you what if every ALPA member get an assessment for 3 g’s to pay for some east pilots crying, good luck ever getting on a jump seat the rest of your career. Good luck ever getting support for anything ever again.

So than the 300 or so MDA pilot each collect about $580 thousand each. 100 of which NEVER worked for mainline.

I think this is a long shot at best of winning. But lets say they do. Someone needs to explain the steps of law and logic how you go from a DFR case against ALPA to changing the Nicolau award. If the MDA guys win who is going to go to Nicolau to ask him to change the award? The MDA guys have no legal standing alone. I think that usapa would have to be the one to go to Nicolau since he still has legal jurisdiction.

If usapa were to go to Nicolau to reorder the list to the advantage of 300 east pilot over 300 west pilot they find themselves in the same DFR situation.

If somehow the MDA guys did manage to get back in front of Nicolau to argue for the change. What will the damage argument be? You just collected $580,000.00 each where is the harm? Are they going to argue that they want the position AND the money?

No someone explain how this case is going to change the Nicolau award.

 

[nic4us]

Ok. A pilot I know very intimately was hired in Sept 1986 and the guy one number senior to him on the Nic was hired in December, 1999. That's 13 years.
.........
........
It's no wonder the easties are upset.

It is completely understandable that the east is upset.

The problem is who they are upset with, and their unfortunate behavior as a result of their misguided anger.

The Nicolau award did not devastate their careers as they claim. Your friend was not harmed by the Nic, s/he was harmed by the preceding years of bankruptcies and mismanagement, September 11, 2001, and a whole host of other unfortunate events that had befallen USAirways and our industry in general. The Nic is simply the result of those events quantified into a non-escapable reality of which the east is in denial.

Prior to the merger, they could hold out hope that somehow their airline would rebound and return to former status. But that was not in the cards. After the merger, they could individually hope for a DOH integration, that would propel them above 1500+ other pilots, and they could regain their 1986 career expectation. Well, it was not 1986, it was 2007, and any reasonable, unbiased individual who looked at the situation ( The new company, ALPA, the mediator and the arbitrator) tried to explain to them that what they sought was unobtainable, and that they were really not in a position to be asking for it, much less demanding it.

The bottom line is Nic affirmed it is not all about the east '86 hire, or the furloughed MDA pilot, or the east recalls that cannot hold group II. It was about merging two groups, with two sets of expectations, positions and status (i.e. Seniority). The seniority was merged in an equitable manner and it should have been time to move on.

So your friend has plenty of reasons to be upset, but s/he has no excuse for being angry with Nicolau or the West pilot group.

 

[boeingplt]

I know I guy that went from number 1 to 518 on the West, so what's your point?

At retirement dude

 

[nic4us]

At retirement dude

He retired 3 years ago as number 518.

Similar to the top half of West pilots list who are senior to the bulk of east attrition, he was unable to benefit from it.

 

[luvthe9]

#1

#2

#3

#4

#5


Wow! 5. That's 5 posts in just over an hour regurgitating the same thing over and over. Are you that desperate to bait me off the topic at hand and into a discussion about the UA/CO merger? Sounds like sour grapes, p**** envy, or just a big chip on your shoulder.

Since you're so eager to discuss it, for your information the UA and CO pilots will do just fine. Much the same way DL and NW pilots did just fine. Did you know that at DL no one moved more than 2-3% up or down in relative position, and most less than that? Not such a bloodletting after all, huh?

In fact by your DOH standard I would instantly jump a LARGE group of CO pilots and go from 767 f/o to junior 757 captain overnight! That's right. There are CO pilots with my same DOH who are 737 and 757 captains. Gee that would be great for me! :blink: Fortunately no one at UA or CO has delusions of grandeur.

Let's look at some more facts. 777 captain pay is a whole $3 per hour higher at CO. 757 pay is $10 higher. The 737/320 has the largest split at $13 higher. How about equipment you ask, since this is such a large part of the ratios of seats going forward? CO has 20 B777's. UA has 52, plus 26 B747's... Almost 4 times as many. If you throw the B767 into the mix then you can add UA's 35 to CO's 26.

You mentioned pensions? Well theirs is frozen. CO has a 12.75% b-fund contribution, while UA is 16%.

Pilot wise UA has roughly 1/3 more on active status.

And just as a comparison, DL rates are about $16 per hour higher than CO across the board, which will be our starting point in a joint contract.

Doesn't sound like we stack up so bad. Does it? "Short end of the stick?" Oh please. Get your facts straight. As for question #3, I've heard no one on either the UA or CO side claim that anyone's job is worth more than another. Our's is a merger of equals. No one is wrapped up on a seniority number. Just a fair slotting so everyone keeps their relative positions, with a big fat raise, and a large equity stake from the company. (Just like DL) We actually have a very good working relationship with the CO MEC. Our MC and some of their reps attended a Family Awareness barbecue in NJ just last week.

As much as you wish and hope for others to suffer the same miserable fate you brought upon yourself, it simply won't happen. And trying to ruffle anyone's feathers about it won't work either. Certainly not from the position you stand in.

Now if you'd like to continue this discussion, I'd be happy to do so on the UA board where the UA/CO merger is being discussed. But as for this thread, none of your wasted bandwidth is going to change the fact that MDA was a separate operation. And trying to prove otherwise, this many years after the fact will be another futile effort, while damages continue to add up. It's a crying shame that the rest of the industry is moving up and forward, and you guys are dragging yourselves in the other direction.

Good luck -9.

Well, we have to put up with you driving your beemer into us all the time with your wisdom, thought you might enjoy a reality check. Just think , the right arbitrator might factor that money in over time. It adds up.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Pilots have paid millions of dollars to an organization that purports to unify pilots, yet they were incapable of taking responsibility to merge two lists of pilots that have paid all those dues.

Holy Cow! Either you're a comedian or you lack a sense of irony here. No matter. You are funny!!!!