US Pilots Labor Discussion 5/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[N924PS]

Deleted by me.

 

[Barrister]

Have you read the award?

We all know the recalls had occured, your pilot neutral wrote an opposing statement on the topic of the placement of those who had already been recalled.

They were recalled because of the merger, not prior to it, and that fact alone is why they are junior to the working pilots who did not need to be recalled.

I have to reply to the 330 comment because I am not sure what to make of it.

Is that some sort of jab that I will have the seniority to bid an equiptment type that you feel I do not have the right to bid? If the Nic was implemented today, I could not hold 330, but eventually I will have the seniority to hold it if I want to, if we still have them or a job. Here is the ironic part, the wait would not be as long as you think, and I truthfully really did not want one. But I am starting to think I may have an obligation to bid the thing to keep Bradford,Thuer, Cleary et.al.off of it. Kind of a payback for screwing the West pilots on the front side of this deal. I guess we already know how and why they would vote on any contract tenative agreement. (picture Theur making his decision and agonizing "must keep Nic4us from getting his 1/4th share of 330 seats") Meanwhile Nic4us drinks a beer in his hot tub having no ballot to cast as he refuses to join the union founded at the Seeham school of how to steal from your fellow employee.

While we are talking, how is that LOA93 grievence going?

That is correct you do not have a right to bid a 330 when there are people who have been here 10-15 years longer than you. Simple enough!!

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[767jetz]

I never mentioned DOH. You did. My point is simple, ALPA Merger policy allows other pilot groups to define what they think seniority is, and then the arbitrator decides. If ALPA took a meaningful definable stance, be it slotting,ratio or DOH they would loose members. Every pilot group would know where they stood and some would surely opt out. Explain to me why ALPA merger policy is not a political calculation? Try it with the glasses off, the rose colored glasses....

I brought up DOH because it is the only method that is definable by that one narrow criteria and nothing else. It is impossible to define slotting, ratio, or anything else because any other method requires analysis of the facts at hand particular to the two pilot groups trying to merge. (which is the exact intent of the merger policy.) It is not political because the process is left in the hands of the pilots directly involved in the merger and effected by the outcome. You can not define a merger policy any more than you can define or legislate a successful marriage. It is the negotiation between two parties that determines it's success or failure.

What you want is a merger RULE, or a merger LAW, not a merger POLICY. Just look up the definition of Policy. It is "a plan or course of action, as pursued by a government, organization, individual, etc." ALPA merger policy is a course of action, which was laid out and followed. The fact that you or your elected leaders did not execute good judgment or make sound decisions during that course of action does not suddenly make the policy faulty or political. That is just your way of redirecting the conversation and avoiding responsibility of your collective actions. There is nothing wrong with the policy. It has worked and continues to work for others. It even worked for US AIr, only with an outcome you did not like.

Nothing political there. Just sour grapes.

 

[Pi brat]

PI,

You make both my points that I believe made MDA guys in a separate catagory.

170 Capt has no where to go until recalled.

You would take that e170 Capt over the bottom 737 reserve F/O.................but you couldn't have when it was MDA could you.


I in no way meant that in an arrogant way. i believe it's generally accepted that most guys flying at PDT and others want better things. I am not degrading what they do have. You are the one that said they were the same as a bottom 737 reserve guy that you don't want to be...........

Just wondering, is it your local Elected union reps that failed to represent or Alpa National.??

Flip

I never argued the point with you-they were furloughed pilots. The question before the court is SHOULD they have been furloughed, or listed as furloughed after the company didn't do what they said they were going to do. You know how the company said that each side would have so many block hours, but they dropped the west below and USAPA filed and won a grievance? That's what ALPA should have done with MDA but didn't, hence the DFR.You asked if it was national or my elected reps. I believe it was the MEC chairman and ALPA national,but not sure, I guess you could check the lawsuit to see who is being sued. The rest goes back to if the company and ALPA fixed the situation, then the pilots would have been able to bid back and forth, just like we could at Metro Jet. This thing was a huge mess, and the pilots that went there and didn't go there because of the mess it was paid the price.

I'm off sick leave now, so I'm out of here. You can have the last word. Carry on.

 

[Flippin43]

I never argued the point with you-they were furloughed pilots. The question before the court is SHOULD they have been furloughed, or listed as furloughed after the company didn't do what they said they were going to do. You know how the company said that each side would have so many block hours, but they dropped the west below and USAPA filed and won a grievance? That's what ALPA should have done with MDA but didn't, hence the DFR.You asked if it was national or my elected reps. I believe it was the MEC chairman and ALPA national,but not sure, I guess you could check the lawsuit to see who is being sued. The rest goes back to if the company and ALPA fixed the situation, then the pilots would have been able to bid back and forth, just like we could at Metro Jet. This thing was a huge mess, and the pilots that went there and didn't go there because of the mess it was paid the price.

I'm off sick leave now, so I'm out of here. You can have the last word. Carry on.

PI,

No need of the last word. I'm gonna speculate that once they let a guy opt for the Furlough instead of MDA, the die was cast. How could you undo that in an easy way. Call him at whatever Job he might have had and say guess what your not Furloughed and if you don't come back your Terminated. I dont think so. I believe they stayed with the intent of what they were originally going to do. (separate certificate) and it sounds like the Local Union guys did not put up much of a fuss at the time. Especially if they didn't grieve it at the time.

Flip

 

[traderjake]

That is correct you do not have a right to bid a 330 when there are people who have been here 10-15 years longer than you. Simple enough!!

Simple and wrong.

The last three seniority arbitrations say so.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Standby as the courts show you what you are up against with Binding Arbitration.

Integrity Matters. Apathy kills resolve. USAPA's hostage crisis is ending.

The east would rather kill the airline and all the other people's jobs because of their greedy "principles".

What a racket. Of course, the courts will say otherwise...

 

[nic4us]

That is correct you do not have a right to bid a 330 when there are people who have been here 10-15 years longer than you. Simple enough!!

VNIIMN
NPJB

No, not "simple enough!".

There are no east pilots "who have been here 10-15 years longer" than me, who are junior to me on the Nic.

Would now be a bad time to remind you of the far inferior continuous service of the east pilots when compared the West pilots who actually do have people hired 10-15 years before them ( not so much "longer" than them)? For instance, we have pilots hired in 97-98 who have more LOS than your 89 hires.

So go rationalize some other reason why usapa can think it okay to take from me and other West pilots, and give it to more junior pilots.

In the mean time, since east poster seem to have this big fixation on the 330, I will take a closer look and see how many east pilots are already occupying top pay 330 seats that should be held by West pilots. That info could be interesting in the damages trial.

 

[PullUp]

No, not "simple enough!".

There are no east pilots "who have been here 10-15 years longer" than me, who are junior to me on the Nic.

Would now be a bad time to remind you of the far inferior continuous service of the east pilots when compared the West pilots who actually do have people hired 10-15 years before them ( not so much "longer" than them)? For instance, we have pilots hired in 97-98 who have more LOS than your 89 hires.

So go rationalize some other reason why usapa can think it okay to take from me and other West pilots, and give it to more junior pilots.

In the mean time, since east poster seem to have this big fixation on the 330, I will take a closer look and see how many east pilots are already occupying top pay 330 seats that should be held by West pilots. That info could be interesting in the damages trial.

Ok. A pilot I know very intimately was hired in Sept 1986 and the guy one number senior to him on the Nic was hired in December, 1999. That's 13 years. Under the east list, he would retire number 115 system seniority.
Under the nic, 1100 westies have bidding rights senior to him. This effectively will lock him out of a 330 seat forever, maybe even a group 2 blockholder seat....
It's no wonder the easties are upset.

 

[767jetz]

Ok. A pilot I know very intimately was hired in Sept 1986...

Intimately? As in the Biblical sense? :wub: Often times those who know each other "intimately" tell small un-truths. Are you sure his info is accurate?

 

[aquagreen73s]

Ok. A pilot I know very intimately was hired in Sept 1986 and the guy one number senior to him on the Nic was hired in December, 1999. That's 13 years. Under the east list, he would retire number 115 system seniority.

I know this is hard for too many of you on the East to comprehend, but we went from individual lists to a combined list. If you think he should have kept his #115, then what you were expecting was a windfall. That wasn't going to happen. The fact is that he gained in relative position on the combined list whereas the West pilots lost a few percentage points. Advantage: East.

This effectively will lock him out of a 330 seat forever, maybe even a group 2 blockholder seat....

Total BS. The vast majority of those 1100 "westies" would retire before him. It would be great if they didn't - the Fountain of Youth would have finally been found and it was the West seniority list all along!

It's no wonder the easties are upset.

Litigants with unrealistic expectations normally are upset with the system, but that doesn't make the result incorrect. Everyone and every other arbitration say the east pilots are wrong. A federal jury said the east pilots were wrong. The east got a lot more than they should have in that arbitration. None of you will ever accept the fact that there was a good reason why you had more than a third of your seniority list furloughed. No other airline has done that and lived to tell about it. Why? Because they died.

 

[john john]

Ok. A pilot I know very intimately was hired in Sept 1986 and the guy one number senior to him on the Nic was hired in December, 1999. That's 13 years. Under the east list, he would retire number 115 system seniority.
Under the nic, 1100 westies have bidding rights senior to him. This effectively will lock him out of a 330 seat forever, maybe even a group 2 blockholder seat....
It's no wonder the easties are upset.

His career expectations was not to fly the 330 and the west career expectations was to fly the 330. Go figure

 

[aquagreen73s]

His career expectations was not to fly the 330 and the west career expectations was to fly the 330. Go figure

Pullup's story is a fairy tale, just like Cinderella. Great entertainment but no connection to reality.

 

[boeingplt]

Pullup's story is a fairy tale, just like Cinderella. Great entertainment but no connection to reality.

I know a guy who would have been number one on the list and under nic went to number 450, see him every morning when I shave.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I know a guy who would have been number one on the list and under nic went to number 450, see him every morning when I shave.

I know I guy that went from number 1 to 518 on the West, so what's your point?