US Pilots Labor Discussion 5/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Black Swan]

Nothing from you guys out west with regard to the EVP balloting. What are you thinking ? I hate to hear any complaining about funding a position that is really not needed, but here we are now. The position was maintained, mostly by the west. Now that they got it, they didn't really come out and support your guy. I was very interested to see the low participation by the west, and saw how the east ramped up their votes. So how is this going measure up going forward, say we get a contract offer? Not that we will, but all the posturing about the East not having the will to vote, the apathy, etc. And when the time comes, the west does not really make a showing. And the west guys do not really go full bore for Eric. How many guys do you really have in good standing? Hard to tell, because what we have heard, was not evidenced in the polling. How is this going to play out in a contract vote? Either way, it is a shame for all of us to have to pay for another guy. Both sides lose. I don't know where this thing is going. More spinning wheels, Both sides of the airline.

 

[Black Swan]

Either way, Gary Hummel is a good guy. I have heard the same for Ferguson.

 

[aquagreen73s]

The current regime has to go. There's no question about it.

 

[Black Swan]

The current regime has to go. There's no question about it.

Well, if that is how you feel about it, why didn't you guys put Ferguson in? Good guy I hear for you, but even your guys were not all in for him.

 

[Black Swan]

What you saw in this vote is a clear indication of the East resolve in what you will see with any contract vote with the Nic in it. If the East pilots were wavering, they would have voted for Ferguson. The East guys who are for themselves, the most senior with the $$ in mind- went for Ferguson. Every other East vote was divided among the East candidates. You had nobody going for Ferguson. And when the rest of the clutter is removed, you are going to get an even clearer show of where the vote is going. And it is going for Hummel. You are going to see an even larger block going together on the East. Say what you want. You are going to get a very clear demonstration of what you are up against. And I would wager a large group of west pilots are going to go for a contract without the Nic if it has the $$$$. Things are going to become more and more evident with the next vote. A vote away from Ferguson is a NO NIC vote. Standby, the East is going to show you what you are up against regarding a contract with the Nic.

 

[cleardirect]

Yea, and 500 guys who were shown as furloughd were back flying before NIC could find his computer and turn it on. Go broker a peace deal in the Middle East. Won't take you as long and will be more fullfilling than waiting on your 330 seat.

VNIIMN
NPJB

US Airways pilot group caused the recall of over 300 US Airways pilots between March 2006 and the first week of January of this year.

How about stating facts instead of fiction? Not 500.

 

[Black Swan]

I really believe a lot of East pilots would have no problem with a Westie in the position. You should have someone in it going forward. But the east guys will not go for a leonidas and Cactus 18 in. You need to pick someone else that both sides can go for.

 

[cleardirect]

LOA 93 Grievance? You guys are really out of the loop with regard to anything that doesn't give you your chance to steal someone else's space in line. It was completed months ago.

Dude,

You really need to understand what you are talking about BEFORE posting. It is you that is out of the loop. The LOA 93 grievance is not complete yet. Try reading a usapa update once in awhile.

May 18, 2010 Iron Compass

Transcripts, decisions and briefs are not released into the public domain unless consent is obtained by both parties. Under advice of our legal staff, the Grievance Committee will post the transcript on the USAPA website along with the briefs of the Company and the Union; these documents will be available for the private viewing of the US Airways Pilots. The parties have agreed to exchange the briefs on Friday, June 11th. Therefore pilots can expect to be able to review all documents on the USAPA website the following week.

I would think that you guys that have been around the airline industry as long as you all claim would know the arbitration process. The arb is not done until all the paperwork is complete. Briefs on June 11 that means that the grievance is NOT done yet.

Want to ask yourself the obvious question?Why is usapa dragging their feet so much on an arbitration that is so important and that you think that you are going to win? Why the delay? I would think that usapa would be pounding the table everyday demanding that the record be closed and that the arbitrator get to work on the decision. But no we hear very little about it. Heck you thought that it was closed. How good is usapa communication?

 

[Freebird]

Standby, the East is going to show you what you are up against regarding a contract with the Nic.

Standby as the courts show you what you are up against with Binding Arbitration.

Integrity Matters. Apathy kills resolve. USAPA's hostage crisis is ending.

 

[nic4us]

Nothing from you guys out west with regard to the EVP balloting. What are you thinking ?

Swan,

It looked to me that all West MIGs voted for EF. I would imagine that is all there are, around 850 or so West MIGs. I know for sure the West does not have the 1000 required to get a third rep in PHX.

Personally, I am thinking the stategy of the West to become MIGs and try to make change from within is fruitless. As shown in this vote, and in the original representational election, the east outnumbers the West by far. So the east will get their way in matters of how to run the east's union, and the West will sue and win anytime you pull illegal discriminatory stunts like trying to reorder the seniority list.

I do not like sitting on the sidelines in all of this, but until we have a union whose purpose is to defend all our jobs, count me out. When both sides drop the back and forth stick poking in the day to day decisions, and we start to move in the same direction, I will join, might even run for office (that way Cleary can get my 330 seat). But first, the infighting will have to end, and it will end with the Nic intact, there is simply no other logically feasible conclusion.

Your statement about the West pilots voting for a contract without the Nic, if the money is right, is ludicrous. First, there is an injunction that says all contract proposals must contain the Nic. Second, the lionshare of contract improvements will go to first bring east up to West standard. Finally, and most importantly, there is a damages trial coming up. The west is not about to give in if we are under no pressure to do so, especially when the pressure upon the east is increased exponentially when your folks start paying assesments. First for our legal reimbursments, then later for our damages.

I hope you are correct in your assesment of Hummel, cause it looks like he will get the EVP gig soon.

 

[N924PS]

What you saw in this vote is a clear indication of the East resolve in what you will see with any contract vote with the Nic in it. If the East pilots were wavering, they would have voted for Ferguson. The East guys who are for themselves, the most senior with the $$ in mind- went for Ferguson. Every other East vote was divided among the East candidates. You had nobody going for Ferguson. And when the rest of the clutter is removed, you are going to get an even clearer show of where the vote is going. And it is going for Hummel. You are going to see an even larger block going together on the East. Say what you want. You are going to get a very clear demonstration of what you are up against. And I would wager a large group of west pilots are going to go for a contract without the Nic if it has the $$$$. Things are going to become more and more evident with the next vote. A vote away from Ferguson is a NO NIC vote. Standby, the East is going to show you what you are up against regarding a contract with the Nic.

I will respectfully disagree.

Should the NAC be able to craft an acceptable agreement addressing compensation, sick leave, reserve system, and other quality of life enhancements......IT WILL PASS and with the Nic.

And if any one is wavering on their next vote, maybe a vote for EF will send a message to USAPA that they better start looking past Section 22 as the cornerstone of a new contract for ALL USAirways pilots.

Just think, an EVP that looks beyond his partisanship for the good of ALL USAirways pilots and Wake being upheld in San Francisco. It just might happen....

 

[767jetz]

#1

Lets' see how your 777 drivers and 76 jetzz stack up against Co same paywise if the going gets tough. You don't stack up so good right now.

#2

How is a UAL job worth more than a CO pilot job? CO is light years ahead of UAL in all pay and pension categories. You are not going to be able to stack up very well either with the same logic you propose here!

#3

And you guys don't stack up against CO in any way. shape or form. If they compare you in any category, you get the short end of the stick.

#4

Sure is easy to come over here though, and defend ALPA. Have fun making your case with the CO boyzz! UAL is not stacking up very high when you do the comparison. Good luck on their board.

#5

And the idea that a UAL widebody capt has the the same value as a CONTINENTAL widebody capt has is absurd. Good luck!

Wow! 5. That's 5 posts in just over an hour regurgitating the same thing over and over. Are you that desperate to bait me off the topic at hand and into a discussion about the UA/CO merger? Sounds like sour grapes, p**** envy, or just a big chip on your shoulder.

Since you're so eager to discuss it, for your information the UA and CO pilots will do just fine. Much the same way DL and NW pilots did just fine. Did you know that at DL no one moved more than 2-3% up or down in relative position, and most less than that? Not such a bloodletting after all, huh?

In fact by your DOH standard I would instantly jump a LARGE group of CO pilots and go from 767 f/o to junior 757 captain overnight! That's right. There are CO pilots with my same DOH who are 737 and 757 captains. Gee that would be great for me! :blink: Fortunately no one at UA or CO has delusions of grandeur.

Let's look at some more facts. 777 captain pay is a whole $3 per hour higher at CO. 757 pay is $10 higher. The 737/320 has the largest split at $13 higher. How about equipment you ask, since this is such a large part of the ratios of seats going forward? CO has 20 B777's. UA has 52, plus 26 B747's... Almost 4 times as many. If you throw the B767 into the mix then you can add UA's 35 to CO's 26.

You mentioned pensions? Well theirs is frozen. CO has a 12.75% b-fund contribution, while UA is 16%.

Pilot wise UA has roughly 1/3 more on active status.

And just as a comparison, DL rates are about $16 per hour higher than CO across the board, which will be our starting point in a joint contract.

Doesn't sound like we stack up so bad. Does it? "Short end of the stick?" Oh please. Get your facts straight. As for question #3, I've heard no one on either the UA or CO side claim that anyone's job is worth more than another. Our's is a merger of equals. No one is wrapped up on a seniority number. Just a fair slotting so everyone keeps their relative positions, with a big fat raise, and a large equity stake from the company. (Just like DL) We actually have a very good working relationship with the CO MEC. Our MC and some of their reps attended a Family Awareness barbecue in NJ just last week.

As much as you wish and hope for others to suffer the same miserable fate you brought upon yourself, it simply won't happen. And trying to ruffle anyone's feathers about it won't work either. Certainly not from the position you stand in.

Now if you'd like to continue this discussion, I'd be happy to do so on the UA board where the UA/CO merger is being discussed. But as for this thread, none of your wasted bandwidth is going to change the fact that MDA was a separate operation. And trying to prove otherwise, this many years after the fact will be another futile effort, while damages continue to add up. It's a crying shame that the rest of the industry is moving up and forward, and you guys are dragging yourselves in the other direction.

Good luck -9.

 

[pitchlow]

ALPA merger policy is written to give each airline's MEC and pilots the tools to negotiate. It is meant for reasonable people to come together and compromise in order to resolve their differences. The final measure of binding arbitration is a last resort in case 2 groups can't find common ground. ALPA National never wanted to dictate to every airline's pilots how they should integrate during a merger due to the vast differences at different companies in this deregulated industry. That's the problem from the start. You think ALPA National was some how in control (or should have taken control) of your destiny, when in fact it was your MEC and your own pilots who were responsible.

You say "if ALPA merger policy was absolutely definable there would be no need for arbitration's." (Basically the DOH stance.) There would also be no need for pilot input either. Maybe you like it this way. With the demographics of the east maybe this would benefit you. You also wouldn't have to worry about any corruption among your own pilot group and your elected officials. But most (not all) pilots outside of the east do not agree. So round and round we go.

The problem with your premise when you say "but when an award is perceived to go awry ..." is that you consider things going awry when the award was not what you wanted it to be. Perhaps you should consider that things actually went awry long before, when everyone at the table, including the arbitrator and the neutrals warned your merger committee and asked (heck they practically begged) that you come off the DOH stance and try another approach. There was much that could be done if men had stood up to be heard and not let your leadership run amok. But anyone who spoke up was threatened with recall. Correct? "Tote the line" they were told.

This world of "do-over's" that the east lives in is really murky. The villain is always someone else, the fault always lies elsewhere, and the problem becomes everyone's.

I never mentioned DOH. You did. My point is simple, ALPA Merger policy allows other pilot groups to define what they think seniority is, and then the arbitrator decides. If ALPA took a meaningful definable stance, be it slotting,ratio or DOH they would loose members. Every pilot group would know where they stood and some would surely opt out. Explain to me why ALPA merger policy is not a political calculation? Try it with the glasses off, the rose colored glasses....

 

[Flippin43]

I've completely lost faith in you bro. MDA was not an internal union matter.

OK then, your suing your old union for practice then. If your reps didn't grieve it at the time and you wanted them to or If they did and you didn't like how it was handled. Then you are using the Court system to settle an "Internal Union Dispute".

 

[nic4us]

LOA 93 Grievance? You guys are really out of the loop with regard to anything that doesn't give you your chance to steal someone else's space in line. It was completed months ago.

Yeah, I am out of the loop?

As a self professed top 300 pilot, who exactly is trying to steal your space in line? There are about 1500 or so east pilots trying to steal mine.

Or are you refering to the west pilots who were employed on the day of the merger, and have since been furloughed, while pilots who were furloughed on the day of the merger are gainfully employed, because the east voted in a fake union whose sole constitutional purpose and intention was the stealing of jobs and positions and status.

Did you vote for usapa, and, if so, did you actually read their constitution prior to voting for it? Did you visit usapa's web sight after their card drop? Did you go to any of their road shows? I ask these questions because any of these actions would have educated you on the fact that usapa was being formed for no other reason than to steal something the east did not have prior to the merger. I would like to know if you abetted them in their attempted theft.

Anyone ever inform you the fake union lost a federal trial over its intentions of stealing West jobs.

Heard your Freedom pilot did not get many votes in the EVP election. What happened? I thought he had an endorsement from Cleary and Mowery. His MO strike a little to close to home?