US Pilots Labor Discussion 5/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Did you check out those election results! I guess EF"s plan of setting up a cubicle in the EberWEBBER isn't sitting to well on the EAST! MM!

 

[Freebird]

Lots of interesting questions that speak to culpability, but all irrelevant to whether or not the list was accurate, and irrelevant to whether or not MDA was mainline.

Why was the list not accurate and whos fault is it? Your MEC? Maybe your group hedged its DOH bet by submitting an 'innaccurate' list to able to point at if they didn't get the PIpe dream DOH. Far fetched? Not really. As your group cannot seem to operate above the board. Your Integrity is lacking. Your values are corrupt. Morals....what morals?

Its funny how the East DOH argument was rejected by the Arbitrator. Yet now, grasping for straws, you want to argue the accuracy of the list. Whats next? Did mommy not give you enough attention?

 

[Phoenix]

Why was the list not accurate and whos fault is it? Your MEC? Maybe your group hedged its DOH bet by submitting an 'innaccurate' list to able to point at if they didn't get the PIpe dream DOH. Far fetched? Not really. As your group cannot seem to operate above the board. Your Integrity is lacking. Your values are corrupt. Morals....what morals?

Its funny how the East DOH argument was rejected by the Arbitrator. Yet now, grasping for straws, you want to argue the accuracy of the list. Whats next? Did mommy not give you enough attention?

Thats quite a few accusations. You are all over the place dude. Try to tighten the shot group bro. I would rather go hunting with Dick Cheney... and dragging mommy into it.

 

[Pi brat]

Well hold a second. First of all, if UA tried to fly the 787 on our certificate we would certainly fight it. But with our scope, any airplane that UAL owns (or leases) must be flown by UAL seniority list pilots. That's regardless of certificate. Heck they could start a whole other airline and certificate, but if it's owned by UAL Corp, then it's UAL pilot's flying it. So you see there are many different ways to define a mainline airplane. That's my point.

I don't disagree that there is a strong case to argue for those jets being mainline due to the certificate they are flying under. But the time to argue that has long since past. No matter what ALPA now admits to, it has little chance of changing anything. As for a DFR suit against ALPA, perhaps. That's something for the courts to decide.

I fully understand that you agree with the fact that MDA was separate. I just think that your definition of mainline aircraft due to the certificate they are flown under is not clearly defined by any law. That has everything to do with scope language, agreements and side letters, etc. Without knowing all the details behind those things, you can't definitively say that those are mainline jets based on that narrow interpretation alone. Maybe your right and maybe your not. But it's not written in stone.

I think we also agree that your union officials should have argued that a long time ago. So if anything, a DFR suit would be directed at your own union, US ALPA at the time. It would be hard to hold ALPA National accountable for the actions (or in this case inaction) of your elected officials.

I can agree with most of this and really this all started as a "what if". As I said it's up to the courts to decide. US had some of the strongest scope in the business, at one time any jet in the US colors had to be flown by mainline, but we let the ch 11 process erode it. It can happen anywhere.

 

[Barrister]

EVP vote is in........

There will be a run off between Eric Ferguson and Gary Hummel. There were 3,526 eligible voters, for which 2,640 cast ballots, representing 74.9% of the eligible voters. Of the 2,640 ballots received, 838 (31.7%) were cast via IVR, and 1,802 (68.3%) were cast via the Web. No ballots were cast in which the voter did not make a selection. There were 118 ballots declared void. Ferguson received 34% (889 votes) of the eligible ballots, while Hummel received 41% (1088 votes) of the eligible ballots. The other 25% of the vote was split between 5 other east pilots.

And when it comes time to vote on a joint contract with 99% of eligible voters voting it won't even be close.

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[Pi brat]

And when it comes time to vote on a joint contract with 99% of eligible voters voting it won't even be close.

VNIIMN
NPJB

Depends on what we are voting for.

 

[Barrister]

Here is why it makes no difference if MDA is considered furloughed or not as it pertains to the Nic.

AWA was not added to the east list.

A false assumption being made is that Nic matched up the bottom guys and based his ratio on getting Monda and Odell matched. Consider the MDA pilots active ( five years after the fact BTW) and you have a new bottom, so Swan et.al. are wrongly assuming it would follow that Odell would have to be matched with some MDA pilot possibly 1000 numbers junior to Monda. This is not the case and not how the list was constructed.

In the award Nicolau showed both the number of aircraft broken down by type and further divided by east and west fleet. He also showed how many pilots flew those aircraft again by east and West. He then did his ratio. 9 A330 east=517 pilots, 0 A330 West=0 pilots, top 517 names are east. (I do not have the exact numbers in front of me so I have to make them up for now, also for easy math) 15 757/767 east=120 capts, 12 757 West=90 capts, the next 210 pilots ratioed at 120/90. 200 737 A320 east=1000 capts, 130 737 A320 West=880 capts, next 1880 pilots ratioed at 1000/880. Then on to the FOs seats in the same fashion.

Now I might get this wrong, but there were no E175 on the certificate when the list was constructed, so there is no 20 E175 east=200 capts, 0 E175 West=0 capts to insert after the other types, before the FO ratioing begins. Even if there were it would move Odell down 200 not 400. Nic did not find the bottom, match those pilots and work his way up, he started at the top and worked his way down, and the last two names are obviously going to be the last two names on the respective list.

To sum, AWA was not added to the east list, matching pilot totals to determine a ratio, to fill us into your list. The West list and east list merged based on the aircraft being flown by each and their respective staffing models to create ratioed slots. Those slots were then filled by names from our respective list in seniority order. So even if an MDA pilot is considered non-furoughed, s/he does not have the seniority on the east list to hold a slot above one reserved for the last West pilot.

Yea, and 500 guys who were shown as furloughd were back flying before NIC could find his computer and turn it on. Go broker a peace deal in the Middle East. Won't take you as long and will be more fullfilling than waiting on your 330 seat.

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[Freebird]

Thats quite a few accusations. You are all over the place dude. Try to tighten the shot group bro. I would rather go hunting with Dick Cheney... and dragging mommy into it.

There's only one accusation. More of an assumption of your lack of integrity blinding your honest attempt at negotiating the seniority list. Oh that's right, it can only be DOH, right? Too bad the courts don't agree with you. I'll try not to put as much information in a post. It makes it easier for your older guys to keep up.

 

[Freebird]

And when it comes time to vote on a joint contract with 99% of eligible voters voting it won't even be close.

VNIIMN
NPJB

What are scab-endorsing Cleary and his thugs afraid of? They dont have support? Your resolve is crumbling. Put out a contract to vote on. IT WILL PASS. Your guys will sell you out so fast....history repeats itself.

Usapa is a failure. Your attempt at DOH is a failure. Not going to happen.

NRBAGFY

 

[Flippin43]

A premise to ALPA's faithfulness and advocacy to an arbitrated seniority list is the accuracy of the lists which they certify and present to an arbitrator. Even ALPA would be smart enough not to present a list for ratification after they had denied the premise of its accuracy.

Its just one more reason why courts should be averse to embroiling themselves in unsettled internal union matters.

PHX,

Certainly you see the logic in the court system becoming involved when the union starts behaving like a Gorilla with no manners!!!!

according to your logic the MDA guys should not be challeging this whole issue then, it was an internal union matter that was "handled" by the local union officials and therefore considered over.

Which way do you want it?? cant have both.


Flip

 

[luvthe9]

What are scab-endorsing Cleary and his thugs afraid of? They dont have support? Your resolve is crumbling. Put out a contract to vote on. IT WILL PASS. Your guys will sell you out so fast....history repeats itself.

Usapa is a failure. Your attempt at DOH is a failure. Not going to happen.

NRBAGFY

This is why we can't put one of your guys in. As usual, when the heavy lifting needs to happen, the East is all in. The Nic 3 years and waiting.............

 

[luvthe9]

What are scab-endorsing Cleary and his thugs afraid of? They dont have support? Your resolve is crumbling. Put out a contract to vote on. IT WILL PASS. Your guys will sell you out so fast....history repeats itself.

Usapa is a failure. Your attempt at DOH is a failure. Not going to happen.

NRBAGFY

Let's see, take a small raise today, forget ever upgrading to capt. forever for a east f/o and forgo that raise, and have to fly with guys like you. Guess which one wins???

 

[Flippin43]

Look at this from US history prospective. We had 65/73 seat F-28 on the mainline ( that btw paid more in the 90s than an E190 pays now). Again, MDA positions were in reality mainline jobs, just like Metro Jet was, operating under a side letter. Here's you big statement and you are absolutely correct: "The difference in your example is that the 170 captain has no where to go. (Unless he was recalled to mainline.)" Well yeah, that's the same as the bottom 737 F/O, and when the slot came open, they would move up, furloughed or not.

And here is the most arrogant statement: 'Since when is flying for a commuter, even as a captain considered a quality of life improvement?" What do you know about their quality of life? Do you have the contract in front of you? I guess it's all personal preference, but I would take an E170 #1 captain over a bottom 737 F/O any day, IF it paid at least 50 cents more an hour. And again, if ALPA had properly represented the MDA pilots, they may have had better contract terms than they did.

PI,

You make both my points that I believe made MDA guys in a separate catagory.

170 Capt has no where to go until recalled.

You would take that e170 Capt over the bottom 737 reserve F/O.................but you couldn't have when it was MDA could you.


I in no way meant that in an arrogant way. i believe it's generally accepted that most guys flying at PDT and others want better things. I am not degrading what they do have. You are the one that said they were the same as a bottom 737 reserve guy that you don't want to be...........

Just wondering, is it your local Elected union reps that failed to represent or Alpa National.??

Flip

 

[Freebird]

Let's see, take a small raise today, forget ever upgrading to capt. forever for a east f/o and forgo that raise, and have to fly with guys like you. Guess which one wins???

Struck a nerve did I? Dont worry about flying with me -9, you're in the top 300 (or so you say). I prefer to fly with rational people who have integrity. People I can trust. Not some AFO who isn't professional enough to honor an agreement; Someone who feels that they must blame everybody else for their own failure to negotiate. Your pilots will upgrade, just not at the expense of the West. Career expectations work both ways. Nicolau understood that.

Now, you can can attack me or the message, or both. Its called deflection. When you dont have a valid argument 1) Attack the speaker 2) Change the subject 3) Deny the truth.

You're playing your hand really well. Too bad its been a losing hand. A pair of 2's aint gonna cut it (DOH C&Rs). We called your bluff (DFR). You're running out of chips (East resolve).

NRBAGFY

 

[767jetz]

Seniority is the solution that eliminates problems among skilled labor.

I don't know about that. The Nicolau award solved the seniority problem fine, except not to the liking of one group. The problem is the east's narrow definition of seniority. Sorry, but in this profession seniority does not equal DOH. Seniority is what fleet and seat you are able to bid.