US Pilots Labor Discussion 5/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[CallawayGolf]

Always a catch or small gothcha that Usapa hopes to capitalize on. Nothing can be done legitimately, can it?

So now, you want to reshuffle. What happened to DOH? Which is it?

USAPA costs ALL USAIRWAYS EMPLOYEES !!!!!!! a waste of time and money !!!

That’s just the way it is for bureaucrats who extort money from others to pay for their own misguided existences. It’s easy to waste time when you are not held accountable for your actions and have no bona fide purpose in your role as a bureaucrat. It’s even easier to spend other people’s money on things that most people would be very reluctant to pay for out of their own pocket. For example, how many PAX are willing (or even demand) to let their companies pay for a FC ticket but wouldn’t consider paying for a full-fare FC ticket out of their own pocket? All bureaucracies waste time and other people’s money – especially those that receive funds by some form of extortion (governments, unions , etc.) In this sense, USAPA is no different than the rest. The big difference is that USAPA cannot even deliver on a single issue of importance to its constituents.

 

[luvn737s]

You, from UAL and a totally different ALPA, would have used the leverage. Our guys were conspiring with the company. We had numerous concessionary deals and workouts with the company time and again. I fault our guys for even accepting much of it with the ballot, but they did. Our MEC was working hand in hand with the company. For years. I know most on this board believe dumping ALPA was all geared about the Nic. You are wrong. It was things like MDA and the pension handling that lit the fuse.

Whom do you fault for not recalling those reps?

The west can show you how to keep your reps on a very short leash. If you take the time to ask a west pilot about the history behind ALPA at AWA and what went on, you'll see how lessons were learned and not soon forgotten.

USAPA seems to have an endless supply of villains they can trot out when they need a convenient diversion from their own inept and corrupt mismanagement.

 

[Tiger 1050]

So here is the what I say it boils down to. ALPA is finally going to admit MDA was mainline. It was mainline because the FEDs would not not let MDA start up that fast with a new certificate. So the way to get around it, according to the FAA, was just add the E-175 as a new airplane to mainline. So that is what happened. All in the name of a quick start up. It is that simple to add a new jet to an existing airline. No certificate needed. One catch, you had to somehow convince the pilots it was an express when it really wasn't. You paint it on the side, but that isn't the truth. The certificate is the truth, and it says USAirways. So if it says USAirways on the certificate of MDA, not MDA, and the boys flying the jets have USAirways ID's, then maybe those pilots weren't furloughed after all were they????So I do believe, if ALPA does come out, like I think they are going to do, and maybe lay the blame on the ALPA reps on the property, and maybe let them swing in the wind rather than be liable for $$$ the MDA guys are going to have a real big lever to use any way they want. Money, or the Nic. Maybe both..........

Interesting points here BS. I am interested in this battle as well although I admit I know very little. I do have some points/questions for you though. What does the operating certificate have to do with a seniority list? Clearly one can deduce very little as our example shows two seniority lists under one certificate. Maybe I'm missing your point though... Also if in fact your are correct that these pilots were indeed "mainline" then how does one reconcile the disparity of status for those pilots that went to other J4J carriers? I would imagine that there is a case where pilot "A" went to a J4J carrier and pilot "B" went to MDA. Pilot "A" is senior to pilot "B" on the original AAA list yet he will now be junior to pilot "B" not to mention someone who walked in off the street to MDA after this litigation "fixes" the situation?!?

Confused...

 

[cleardirect]

Has there ever been a deal that you east guys live up to.

Now some feel entitled to abandon the MDA deal because you think that you have found an escape from another deal you do not want to live up to. The MDA guys received a FURLOUGH letter. They were given a choice to go to MDA if they wanted. It was understood that MDA was going to get a certificate and be run as a separate operation. The MDA guys accepted employment as a commuter pilot. Not at a “division” of mainline.

Just because AAA was unable to obtain that certificate does not change the conditions that the MDA guys agreed to go to MDA. It has been said before the INTENT was a soft landing for FURLOGHED AAA pilots. We have a company with a single certificate, my pay check says US Airways on it. Yet we have two separate contracts and pay scales. Can I bid into PHL? Could an MDA pilot bid into a 737?

Before, we heard the screams of unfairness that the MDA guys were never furloughed so they should all be senior to Dave O’Dell. Now they are willing to accept only 400 guys being senior to Odell. E.Varini is listed as a plaintiff in the MDA law suit. He is the last guy on the seniority list some 700 numbers below Colello. So I guess that once again some are willing to throw the junior guy under the bus to gain for themselves. So only 400 guys would get the benefit but not Varini who was at MDA and a CEL guy that never flew for mainline ever.

The real problem comes from the top of the list. T. Pohlman, D.C. Johnson, A. Vanlente are not listed as plaintiffs and if I am reading the list right these pilot did not fly for MDA they were FURLOUGHED. So if Pohlman is furloughed how can Varini or even Jim Portale who are junior to Pohlman still be considered employed at mainline? If the most senior guy on the list Pohlman is furloughed everyone junior to him is also furloughed. Period it is an easy concept.

You guys really should be careful about what you wish for. If you think that you are going to get a better deal than what you have now you need to think about it. Nicolau is aware of the games that the east pilots have been playing with his work. Also the insults that have been thrown his way.

Consider this. Nicolau decides that the CEL guy where never mainline to start with therefore he removes them from the list. Nicolau then decides that the top 517 really do constitute a windfall and since it has been 5 years since the merger and there is no fence he places the first west pilot just below the most senior east pilot and starts his ratio from there. Shifting the entire west pilot group up the list about 500 numbers. If you do manage to get the dream of adding 400 MDA guys to the bottom and re-ratio the F/O list so what. Varini is still some 300 numbers junior to O’Dell.

Of those 400 that would include Pohlman. He never worked at MDA so how do the east pilots justify moving him senior to O’Dell? Pohlman was FURLOUGHED making Nicolau’s logic that furloughed pilots go below active pilots.

It is a pipe dream to think that Nicolau would improve the seniority list from where it is today. I would say that it would be substantially worse if you asked him to reopen or reorder the award. But hey go for it boys and girls, how bad could it be?

 

[Metroyet]

Our ALPA MEC was working with the company to use MDA as a "soft landing"

I have to ask. If there was no furlough, and all MDA pilots were supposed to be mainline...what was the intent of the "soft landing"? Landing from what? Opposed to a HARD landing? I'm confused. You're suggesting that MDA was created to relieve a burden of some kind.

WHAT WAS THAT BURDEN?

 

[john john]

That’s just the way it is for bureaucrats who extort money from others to pay for their own misguided existences. It’s easy to waste time when you are not held accountable for your actions and have no bona fide purpose in your role as a bureaucrat. It’s even easier to spend other people’s money on things that most people would be very reluctant to pay for out of their own pocket. For example, how many PAX are willing (or even demand) to let their companies pay for a FC ticket but wouldn’t consider paying for a full-fare FC ticket out of their own pocket? All bureaucracies waste time and other people’s money – especially those that receive funds by some form of extortion (governments, unions , etc.) In this sense, USAPA is no different than the rest. The big difference is that USAPA cannot even deliver on a single issue of importance to its constituents.

There is a surprisingly large number of people entitled to free, space positive generally first class personal and vacation travel on US The whole gaggle of current and retired executives, executives of other airlines, members and former members of the Board of Directors, and "director level" US Airways management…and their children and family members! 
Many of these people work for other corporations or airlines, yet they remain members of the US Airways Old Boys Club, entitled to free premium seats for their personal travel - seats that could otherwise be sold and generating revenue.
How much does it cost ? Are you one?

 

[Black Swan]

I have to ask. If there was no furlough, and all MDA pilots were supposed to be mainline...what was the intent of the "soft landing"? Landing from what? Opposed to a HARD landing? I'm confused. You're suggesting that MDA was created to relieve a burden of some kind.

WHAT WAS THAT BURDEN?

MDA was a bastardization of a concept started during the first UAL attempt merge.Potomac Air. All B Scale scams. MDA was another B Scale for our guys. It was initially sold as a "soft landing" for guys when the furloughs started. Pilots displaced here would have the same pay as mainline. All a scam. I even heard the PHL F/O rep stating he wanted to go there, as he would be a capt and have higher pay.Our own ALPA group was selling the concept hard. What was the true intent of MDA? I ask you. I believe the intent was to get the jets, then funnel them off just as was done to Republic. Why were the 190's ordered, then spun to Republic? You tell me. I honestly believe the E 170 fleet was originally spun up on our cert, in order to get them going for the later move to Republic to facilitate the cash needed by mainline coming out of BK. There was a much larger plan going on here than the line pilot is aware of. Far in advance of what timeline you think. Just like LOA 93 was no last minute deal thought out in a fast session. This thing was written far in advance of its' need and use. It is just too far reaching and complex to be a last minute document. I know you guys want to believe something different, but our MEC at the time was working hand in hand with the company, and the pot was starting to boil.

 

[john john]

I have to ask. If there was no furlough, and all MDA pilots were supposed to be mainline...what was the intent of the "soft landing"? Landing from what? Opposed to a HARD landing? I'm confused. You're suggesting that MDA was created to relieve a burden of some kind.

WHAT WAS THAT BURDEN?

A dream of J.G. VP of HR that never materialize. Thank God
It’s still in the books you better educate your self’s

 

[Flippin43]

MDA was a bastardization of a concept started during the first UAL attempt merge.Potomac Air. All B Scale scams. MDA was another B Scale for our guys. It was initially sold as a "soft landing" for guys when the furloughs started. Pilots displaced here would have the same pay as mainline. All a scam. I even heard the PHL F/O rep stating he wanted to go there, as he would be a capt and have higher pay.Our own ALPA group was selling the concept hard. What was the true intent of MDA? I ask you. I believe the intent was to get the jets, then funnel them off just as was done to Republic. Why were the 190's ordered, then spun to Republic? You tell me. I honestly believe the E 170 fleet was originally spun up on our cert, in order to get them going for the later move to Republic to facilitate the cash needed by mainline coming out of BK. There was a much larger plan going on here than the line pilot is aware of. Far in advance of what timeline you think. Just like LOA 93 was no last minute deal thought out in a fast session. This thing was written far in advance of its' need and use. It is just too far reaching and complex to be a last minute document. I know you guys want to believe something different, but our MEC at the time was working hand in hand with the company, and the pot was starting to boil.

BS,

I'll ask this more directly.

What do you think you will achieve by bringing this up to Nicolau now even though he was made aware of this dispute at the Arbitration Hearings?


Seems to me there are no new facts. Even in the event of a re ratio based on status Nothing would change. AWA did not have e-170's, so that ratio would start below Dave Odell. Which actually has already been done by Nicolau.

Flip

 

[Pi brat]

BS,

I'll ask this more directly.

What do you think you will achieve by bringing this up to Nicolau now even though he was made aware of this dispute at the Arbitration Hearings?


Seems to me there are no new facts. Even in the event of a re ratio based on status Nothing would change. AWA did not have e-170's, so that ratio would start below Dave Odell. Which actually has already been done by Nicolau.

Flip

Why? I asked this of that DL guy, but he hasn't gotten back to me. Maybe Nic addressed this "why", but I'm too lazy to look it up and except on this board it probably won't matter. But, let's say that MDA from the start had been set up like Metro Jet, just another division of the mainline with side letter differences in the contract. The top capt on MDA had a much higher pay and quality of life than indoc Dave did at the PID, so why should they be below him?

 

[Freebird]

Why? I asked this of that DL guy, but he hasn't gotten back to me. Maybe Nic addressed this "why", but I'm too lazy to look it up and except on this board it probably won't matter. But, let's say that MDA from the start had been set up like Metro Jet, just another division of the mainline with side letter differences in the contract. The top capt on MDA had a much higher pay and quality of life than indoc Dave did at the PID, so why should they be below him?

I see what you are trying to say. In your example, the Metrojet pilots, we not furloughed and could "without restriction" bid freely between MJ and Mainline. Like UAL and Ted. If that were the case with the MDA pilots, then you'd have a point.

Back to reality...

The pilots at MDA were furloughed pilots. Furloughed. They were offered an opportunity to fly E-170s/190's whatever, for the new certificate MDA. Some took it. Others didn't. The East MEC, Jack Stephans signed the T/A stating that no FURLOUGHED pilots would be placed on the combined list above ACTIVE pilots. Why? Because they were off property and brought no jobs to this combined 'new' airline. The MDA pilots were essentially flying for another carrier. They would have been considered furloughed from MAINLINE. Just as some chose to fly for PSA, Mesa, CHQ, or whomever.

The reality of this world rules transactions, agreements, deals and binding arbitration. Hypothetical's and pipe dreams don't.

How much has USAPA cost you this year?

 

[Pi brat]

I see what you are trying to say. In your example, the Metrojet pilots, we not furloughed and could "without restriction" bid freely between MJ and Mainline. Like UAL and Ted. If that were the case with the MDA pilots, then you'd have a point.

Back to reality...

The pilots at MDA were furloughed pilots. Furloughed. They were offered an opportunity to fly E-170s/190's whatever, for the new certificate MDA. Some took it. Others didn't. The East MEC, Jack Stephans signed the T/A stating that no FURLOUGHED pilots would be placed on the combined list above ACTIVE pilots. Why? Because they were off property and brought no jobs to this combined 'new' airline. The MDA pilots were essentially flying for another carrier. They would have been considered furloughed from MAINLINE. Just as some chose to fly for PSA, Mesa, CHQ, or whomever.

The reality of this world rules transactions, agreements, deals and binding arbitration. Hypothetical's and pipe dreams don't.

How much has USAPA cost you this year?

This place left reality a long time ago. It's the same guys spouting the same b.s., day after day. If you want to change things you need to look somewhere else.

Oscar Jazz and Flip were talking about IF furloughed or not, they should go below the bottom AWA guy, I'm wondering why and what they use to back it up. Just random b.s when I have nothing better to do.

I think USAPA has cost me about 1.98% and assessments, you?

 

[Freebird]

This place left reality a long time ago. It's the same guys spouting the same b.s., day after day. If you want to change things you need to look somewhere else.

Oscar Jazz and Flip were talking about IF furloughed or not, they should go below the bottom AWA guy, I'm wondering why and what they use to back it up. Just random b.s when I have nothing better to do.

I think USAPA has cost me about 1.98% and assessments, you?

If you think that's all they've cost you....well...you need to broaden your horizon. USAPA has cost you job security, a pay raise (Except for Cleary, Mowery and Seham), kept you a industry LOW wages (aren't you worth more?), at minimum for the East, what 25-30% pay raise? And that's just parity. Poor work rules. LOA93.

Reality is the situation that your group, Usapa, is fighting against. Unsuccessfully. You are right about one thing, this board is pure entertainment and regurgitated crap. This union will only go forward when we're pulling the same direction.

Are you working for US or against US? and US isn't Usapa.

Binding Arbitration = Reality. Wake up.

 

[Pi brat]

If you think that's all they've cost you....well...you need to broaden your horizon. USAPA has cost you job security, a pay raise (Except for Cleary, Mowery and Seham), kept you a industry LOW wages (aren't you worth more?), at minimum for the East, what 25-30% pay raise? And that's just parity. Poor work rules. LOA93.

Reality is the situation that your group, Usapa, is fighting against. Unsuccessfully. You are right about one thing, this board is pure entertainment and regurgitated crap. This union will only go forward when we're pulling the same direction.

Are you working for US or against US? and US isn't Usapa.

Binding Arbitration = Reality. Wake up.

So, by your way of thinking, your stance has cost you exactly the same amount. Well, not exactly as your are west and I'm sure you know that since the east was not raised to parity as a merger expense, that raising will come out of your pocket when/if it happens(Doug says thanks!) Had you simply given in to east demands we could be living happily ever after with big fat raises! No way! Not fair! We didn't have too! You say? I've heard the same from east guys. The judge will settle it out and then hopefully we will move forward, even though some never will.

We are all living with the decisions that were made. Some by their own decisions, some of us by the decisions of others. There were many, many chances for a different outcome along the way.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with the question I asked Flip and Oscar, where you jumped in.

 

[Flippin43]

This place left reality a long time ago. It's the same guys spouting the same b.s., day after day. If you want to change things you need to look somewhere else.

Oscar Jazz and Flip were talking about IF furloughed or not, they should go below the bottom AWA guy, I'm wondering why and what they use to back it up. Just random b.s when I have nothing better to do.

I think USAPA has cost me about 1.98% and assessments, you?

PI,

1 They didn't have a Job to Merge, Not a foreign concept.

2 They held the status of being Furloughed from flying ANY similar type A/C AWA had (ie AAA's Mainline Jets). NO ONE seems to want to address this.

3 The Arbitrator heard all this at the Hearings in Jan-Feb 2007 and decided that everyone Furloughed (MDA or not) were of the same status and could not fly AAA's Mainline Jets until a RECALL occurred, should be placed below Dave Odell. After all AWA Merged with AAA not MDA.

4 If not Furloughed, they were flying a catagory of A/C smaller and for less pay than any A/C that AWA had. All the Ratios were based on what type A/C your were flying.


The other thing, How do you justify placing a Furloughed AAA pilot not working for MDA or maybe not working for anyone. Ahead of someone who had a Job to bring to this Merger. Which seems exactly what many MDA guys want. The Arbitrator couldn't see this as fair then, why would he now.

Black Swan has been asked most all of these questions but Fails to ever answer them. Only belaboring the fact of being on the same Certificate. Don't look now, we are all on the same Certificate. And we have restrictions on us.


Flip