US Pilots Labor Discussion 5/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Pi brat]

PI,

1 They didn't have a Job to Merge, Not a foreign concept.

2 They held the status of being Furloughed from flying ANY similar type A/C AWA had (ie AAA's Mainline Jets). NO ONE seems to want to address this.

3 The Arbitrator heard all this at the Hearings in Jan-Feb 2007 and decided that everyone Furloughed (MDA or not) were of the same status and could not fly AAA's Mainline Jets until a RECALL occurred, should be place below Dave Odell. After all AWA Merged with AAA not MDA.

4 If not Furloughed, they were flying a catagory of A/C smaller and for less pay than any A/C that AWA had. All the Ratios were based on what type A/C your were flying.
The other thing, How do you justify placing a Furloughed AAA pilot not working for MDA or maybe not working for anyone. Ahead of someone who had a Job to bring to this Merger. Which seems exactly what many MDA guys want. The Arbitrator couldn't see this as fair then, why would he now.

Black Swan has been asked most all of these questions but Fails to ever answer them. Only belaboring the fact of being on the same Certificate. Don't look now, we are all on the same Certificate.


Flip

For anything that had to do with furloughed, I SAID IF. What's so hard about this part? You guys are saying furloughed or not it makes no difference, I'm asking why.

For the rest. It doesn't matter, it's not up to us, but were we slotted by pay? Our 75 pay more than anything you have. Your other rates are higher than the rest of our fleet. Really what does the size of the airplane have to do with it? It might have, but should it? As I said, the top MDA capt. had a much higher pay and quality of life style than indoc. Dave, so why should his position, if they hadn't been furloughed, be rated more worthy than the top MDA capt.? If the E170 had been a bid choice for him don't you think he would have traded bottom of the list F/O for top E170 capt.?

 

[Flippin43]

For anything that had to do with furloughed, I SAID IF. What's so hard about this part? You guys are saying furloughed or not it makes no difference, I'm asking why.

For the rest. It doesn't matter, it's not up to us, but were we slotted by pay? Our 75 pay more than anything you have. Your other rates are higher than the rest of our fleet. Really what does the size of the airplane have to do with it? It might have, but should it? As I said, the top MDA capt. had a much higher pay and quality of life style than indoc. Dave, so why should his position, if they hadn't been furloughed, be rated more worthy than the top MDA capt.? If the E170 had been a bid choice for him don't you think he would have traded bottom of the list F/O for top E170 capt.?

I answered you question here

"4 If not Furloughed, they were flying a catagory of A/C smaller and for less pay than any A/C that AWA had. All the Ratios were based on what type A/C your were flying"

They did not ratio by pay. They ratioed by A/C type. I just add the pay issue to make it more clear. As you know the A-330 pays more than anything else and its just a jet like anything else right. They pay more for the big ones than the little ones. cuz we let them, but anyway.

The ratios were by A/C type. the 170 is a different and smaller one than anything AWA had at the time. Above Odell it was based on A/C and it was based on A/C below Dave Odell. It also happens that these pilots below Dave Odell were Furloughed. See the corralation. If you were to declare them active and they will be merged by their A/C type and guess where they will go................


But like I said the Arbitrator heard all this at the Hearings in 07' telling him again is going to do what???????

One other thing. The west MEC asked Nicolau if they could publish the transcripts on our AWA Alpa site. And they were. The east Alpa reps said something to the effect..............You can't do that, then everyone will know what was said here. Now we see why........ If you all had got to read the transripts then it would be common knowledge that this all came up and was considered by Nicolau. Not to mention the overall tone of the Hearings was no where near what that east guy said it was. As was later evidenced by the east suprise.

Flip

 

[Pi brat]

I answered you question here

"4 If not Furloughed, they were flying a catagory of A/C smaller and for less pay than any A/C that AWA had. All the Ratios were based on what type A/C your were flying"

They did not ratio by pay. They ratioed by A/C type. I just add the pay issue to make it more clear. As you know the A-330 pays more than anything else and its just a jet like anything else right. They pay more for the big ones than the little ones. cuz we let them, but anyway.

The ratios were by A/C type. the 170 is a different and smaller one than anything AWA had at the time. Above Odell it was based on A/C and it was based on A/C below Dave Odell. It also happens that these pilots below Dave Odell were Furloughed. See the corralation. If you were to declare them active and they will be merged by their A/C type and guess where they will go................


But like I said the Arbitrator heard all this at the Hearings in 07' telling him again is going to do what???????

One other thing. The west MEC asked Nicolau if they could publish the transcripts on our AWA Alpa site. And they were. The east Alpa reps said something to the effect..............You can't do that, then everyone will know what was said here. Now we see why........ If you all had got to read the transripts then it would be common knowledge that this all came up and was considered by Nicolau. Not to mention the overall tone of the Hearings was no where near what that east guy said it was. As was later evidenced by the east suprise.

Flip

So, under your logic the Nic award placed all 737 pilots, captains and F/Os are below all 757 pilots, captains and F/Os? I don't remember that, I will have to check on it and get back to you.

 

[Waketurbulence]

So, by your way of thinking, your stance has cost you exactly the same amount. Well, not exactly as your are west and I'm sure you know that since the east was not raised to parity as a merger expense, that raising will come out of your pocket when/if it happens(Doug says thanks!) Had you simply given in to east demands we could be living happily ever after with big fat raises! No way! Not fair! We didn't have too! You say? I've heard the same from east guys. The judge will settle it out and then hopefully we will move forward, even though some never will.

We are all living with the decisions that were made. Some by their own decisions, some of us by the decisions of others. There were many, many chances for a different outcome along the way.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with the question I asked Flip and Oscar, where you jumped in.

This is why I stay away from these boards. The mindset of some here is simply certifiable....and pathetic.

 

[Pi brat]

This is why I stay away from these boards. The mindset of some here is simply certifiable....and pathetic.

I know, I guess it's all that sun!

 

[high*flyer]

If you think that's all they've cost you....well...you need to broaden your horizon. USAPA has cost you job security, a pay raise (Except for Cleary, Mowery and Seham), kept you a industry LOW wages (aren't you worth more?), at minimum for the East, what 25-30% pay raise? And that's just parity. Poor work rules. LOA93.

Reality is the situation that your group, Usapa, is fighting against. Unsuccessfully. You are right about one thing, this board is pure entertainment and regurgitated crap. This union will only go forward when we're pulling the same direction.

Are you working for US or against US? and US isn't Usapa.

Binding Arbitration = Reality. Wake up.





Binding Arbitration... That reminds me of the line" I was married once and that was till death do us part"

.....Reality is that the Nic is so detrimental to the majority of the east pilot group that all options will be explored to negate it. And that should come as a surprise to no one.

 

[cactusboy53]

Binding Arbitration... That reminds me of the line" I was married once and that was till death do us part"

.....Reality is that the Nic is so detrimental to the majority of the east pilot group that all options will be explored to negate it. And that should come as a surprise to no one.


This is the EXACT reason why a DFR lawsuit was filed. If the 9th affirms Judge Wake's proceedings, you may expect a damages phase of trial that will attempt to financially right the wrong that USAPA & USAPA supporters have inflicted on the west pilot group. That will be a whole new kind of reality.

BTW.....have you noticed that the Delta / NW merger is now totally complete, with a rather large increase in wage, cross base bidding.....and comparatively no dissension in the ranks. That was a merger done under ALPA merger policy via final and binding arbitration. USAPA and its supporters are directly responsible for the millions of dollars lost in wages and contract improvements. Further they have urinated away over 3 million dollars in litigation that was hopeless, fruitless and futile. What we should have done is collect that as a war chest for the next merger.

 

[Black Swan]

I see what you are trying to say. In your example, the Metrojet pilots, we not furloughed and could "without restriction" bid freely between MJ and Mainline. Like UAL and Ted. If that were the case with the MDA pilots, then you'd have a point.

Back to reality...

The pilots at MDA were furloughed pilots. Furloughed. They were offered an opportunity to fly E-170s/190's whatever, for the new certificate MDA. Some took it. Others didn't. The East MEC, Jack Stephans signed the T/A stating that no FURLOUGHED pilots would be placed on the combined list above ACTIVE pilots. Why? Because they were off property and brought no jobs to this combined 'new' airline. The MDA pilots were essentially flying for another carrier. They would have been considered furloughed from MAINLINE. Just as some chose to fly for PSA, Mesa, CHQ, or whomever.

The reality of this world rules transactions, agreements, deals and binding arbitration. Hypothetical's and pipe dreams don't.

How much has USAPA cost you this year?

Maybe when this stuff comes out in a couple of weeks you will se what I am getting to, or trying to get to. It is all about the FURLOUGH. You cannot be furloughed if you are flying on the mainline certificate. This is what the entire matter is all about. They were not furloughed because they were flying just another type jet on the mainline certificate, with USAirways ID's. Very different than the j4j guys on the PSA or Chataquau cert. They, were furloughed.

 

[Black Swan]

BS,

I'll ask this more directly.

What do you think you will achieve by bringing this up to Nicolau now even though he was made aware of this dispute at the Arbitration Hearings?


Seems to me there are no new facts. Even in the event of a re ratio based on status Nothing would change. AWA did not have e-170's, so that ratio would start below Dave Odell. Which actually has already been done by Nicolau.

Flip

Because the MDA deal is coming to a close with ALPA supposedly, and they are going to come out and agree these guys were not furloughed. If you don't see the importance of this, then you will just have to wait. Nicolau was under the impression they were furloughed.

 

[Flippin43]

Because the MDA deal is coming to a close with ALPA supposedly, and they are going to come out and agree these guys were not furloughed. If you don't see the importance of this, then you will just have to wait. Nicolau was under the impression they were furloughed.

BS,

Didn't know that Alpa was the final word on this issue. Evidence that the company Furloughed these guys was examined by Nicolau. Who do you think carries more weight Alpa or the Company. Before you say Alpa, remember that Alpa also said Final and Binding was Final and Binding.


"Nicolau was under the impression they were furloughed". Maybe so but he heard all these arguments claiming they weren't and still decided the way he did. Have you thought for a moment that its possible that what was more obvious than what Certificate they were flying on was the Fact that Flying for MDA or not, NO ONE that was Furloughed on the east side could fly a mainline jet unless he had recieved a RECALL letter. This is an agreeable fact right.

If no Furloughed guy could not bid to and fly a Mainline Jet until he or she had recieved a recall letter. Does it really matter what certificate he was flying on. They were restricted from doing Mainline flying. They could not do the same things with there bidding abilities as Mainline pilots, this made their status different. Why does this seem so hard to grasp.


Flip

 

[Waketurbulence]

Why does this seem so hard to grasp.

Science Dictionary
psychosis (sī-kō'sĭs) Pronunciation Key
Plural psychoses (sī-kō'sēz)

A mental state caused by psychiatric or organic illness, characterized by a loss of contact with reality and an inability to think rationally. A psychotic person often behaves inappropriately and is incapable of normal social functioning.

 

[nic4us]

For anything that had to do with furloughed, I SAID IF. What's so hard about this part? You guys are saying furloughed or not it makes no difference, I'm asking why.

Here is why it makes no difference if MDA is considered furloughed or not as it pertains to the Nic.

AWA was not added to the east list.

A false assumption being made is that Nic matched up the bottom guys and based his ratio on getting Monda and Odell matched. Consider the MDA pilots active ( five years after the fact BTW) and you have a new bottom, so Swan et.al. are wrongly assuming it would follow that Odell would have to be matched with some MDA pilot possibly 1000 numbers junior to Monda. This is not the case and not how the list was constructed.

In the award Nicolau showed both the number of aircraft broken down by type and further divided by east and west fleet. He also showed how many pilots flew those aircraft again by east and West. He then did his ratio. 9 A330 east=517 pilots, 0 A330 West=0 pilots, top 517 names are east. (I do not have the exact numbers in front of me so I have to make them up for now, also for easy math) 15 757/767 east=120 capts, 12 757 West=90 capts, the next 210 pilots ratioed at 120/90. 200 737 A320 east=1000 capts, 130 737 A320 West=880 capts, next 1880 pilots ratioed at 1000/880. Then on to the FOs seats in the same fashion.

Now I might get this wrong, but there were no E175 on the certificate when the list was constructed, so there is no 20 E175 east=200 capts, 0 E175 West=0 capts to insert after the other types, before the FO ratioing begins. Even if there were it would move Odell down 200 not 400. Nic did not find the bottom, match those pilots and work his way up, he started at the top and worked his way down, and the last two names are obviously going to be the last two names on the respective list.

To sum, AWA was not added to the east list, matching pilot totals to determine a ratio, to fill us into your list. The West list and east list merged based on the aircraft being flown by each and their respective staffing models to create ratioed slots. Those slots were then filled by names from our respective list in seniority order. So even if an MDA pilot is considered non-furoughed, s/he does not have the seniority on the east list to hold a slot above one reserved for the last West pilot.

 

[oscarjazz]

Why? I asked this of that DL guy, but he hasn't gotten back to me. Maybe Nic addressed this "why", but I'm too lazy to look it up and except on this board it probably won't matter. But, let's say that MDA from the start had been set up like Metro Jet, just another division of the mainline with side letter differences in the contract. The top capt on MDA had a much higher pay and quality of life than indoc Dave did at the PID, so why should they be below him?

I don't know if you were addressing me, I come back to this board from time to time but I don't read everything because it is too repetitive. In my opinion, in a status and category integration, a 70 seat captain at a regional airline would end up below mainline first officers, all of them. The pay, work rules, and career expectations are just too low to justify anything else.

At Delta we had a division called Song. It was flown by mainline pilots including me. We would not only go in and out of Song trips on a weekly basis but sometimes in the middle of a day we would go between mainline and Song. I don't think any MDA pilots had that same privilege. There was a bright line between MDA and mainline and pilots could not transition the two without furlough and recall. Therefore, the MDA pilots would be considered the same as any other regional carrier in terms of their career path. That puts them below all mainline pilots. I doubt an arbitrator would see it differently.

 

[Phoenix]

... Have you thought for a moment that its possible that what was more obvious than what Certificate they were flying on was the Fact that Flying for MDA or not, NO ONE that was Furloughed on the east side could fly a mainline jet unless he had recieved a RECALL letter. This is an agreeable fact right....

You're kidding right?

You are arguing that what the company and ALPA agreed to DO is the important evidence and it doesn't matter what they were lawfully and contractually ALLOWED to do. With that reasoning it not possible to find that anyone ever did anything wrong. Bye Bye DFR.

If USAPA and the company agreed to sell 30% of the West A320s and replaced them with a bunch of Beech 1900s, flying the same routes and passengers with newly "furloughed" West pilots making half the pay, operating on the same certificate, the same company ID, the same paycheck, etc. etc., (AND USAPA allowed the "furloughed" pilots to be elected BPR members)... then you would get it.

 

[Flippin43]

Here is why it makes no difference if MDA is considered furloughed or not as it pertains to the Nic.

AWA was not added to the east list.

A false assumption being made is that Nic matched up the bottom guys and based his ratio on getting Monda and Odell matched. Consider the MDA pilots active ( five years after the fact BTW) and you have a new bottom, so Swan et.al. are wrongly assuming it would follow that Odell would have to be matched with some MDA pilot possibly 1000 numbers junior to Monda. This is not the case and not how the list was constructed.

In the award Nicolau showed both the number of aircraft broken down by type and further divided by east and west fleet. He also showed how many pilots flew those aircraft again by east and West. He then did his ratio. 9 A330 east=517 pilots, 0 A330 West=0 pilots, top 517 names are east. (I do not have the exact numbers in front of me so I have to make them up for now, also for easy math) 15 757/767 east=120 capts, 12 757 West=90 capts, the next 210 pilots ratioed at 120/90. 200 737 A320 east=1000 capts, 130 737 A320 West=880 capts, next 1880 pilots ratioed at 1000/880. Then on to the FOs seats in the same fashion.

Now I might get this wrong, but there were no E175 on the certificate when the list was constructed, so there is no 20 E175 east=200 capts, 0 E175 West=0 capts to insert after the other types, before the FO ratioing begins. Even if there were it would move Odell down 200 not 400. Nic did not find the bottom, match those pilots and work his way up, he started at the top and worked his way down, and the last two names are obviously going to be the last two names on the respective list.

To sum, AWA was not added to the east list, matching pilot totals to determine a ratio, to fill us into your list. The West list and east list merged based on the aircraft being flown by each and their respective staffing models to create ratioed slots. Those slots were then filled by names from our respective list in seniority order. So even if an MDA pilot is considered non-furoughed, s/he does not have the seniority on the east list to hold a slot above one reserved for the last West pilot.

Nic,

Thats what I was unsuccessfully trying to explain. Yours is much more on point. BS will contend with you that the e-175 was on the certificate though. But as you can see it does not matter. Between this and the fact that MDA pilots could not bid to and fly a Mainline jet until recall. One can see that on the certificate or off, it makes no difference.

In order for BS to be correct that the MDA pilots were "active", he would have to convince the Arbitrator that those pilots on the AAA list not flying for AAA or MDA (and possibly not anywhere else) that came back to work for LCC, were Active. How is he gonna explain that the Furloughed AAA pilot who might not even have gone near an airport for a year or more is an ACTIVE non Furloughed AAA pilot. Unless of he is wishing to re-order the AAA list and have the most Junior AAA pilot that participated in MDA jump ahead of pilots who did not.


Flip