US Pilots Labor Discussion 4/6- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Reed Richards]

Some you from PHX may be correct here about new life for NIC, but you are missing the rational why.

If this current (what is this, the 4th or 5th try at putting U and UAL together?) transaction has any legs, I think the NIC type proposal will again live, but the atmosphere in which it is revived will be so toxic it will not make it past its first breath. There is now a very strong chance no combined list will end up in a contract before a Merger, no matter who wins in the 9th. Simply no time, and once again events will overtake any seniority settlement between the two USAPA pilot groups.

I believe the Transition Agreement will have to be reopened in order to accommodate UAL, and right up front the East pilots will have an opportunity reap some parity rewards. Somewhere down the line a three way seniority negotiation will take place, with USAPA funding both an East and West Merger committee. The East will indeed find common ground and reach an agreement in principle with the UAL pilots, but the West will stand tough on a NIC logic list and shoot down any chances of a non arbitrated list. Good thing is since we have USAPA and ALPA in the mix, the arbitrated list will be determined not by ALPA merger policy , but by the method once called Allegheny-Mohawk. If we go into that process with an already agreed to logic worked out between the East pilots and UAL, do you really think an arbitration is going to go the way of 1600 pilots proposing the same type of inequities that spewed from a senile old man 4 years ago? Good luck with that.

There are many, many more possible iterations that could occur going forward, especially when you throw in East change of control logic. No telling what kind of deal we could craft in order to protect our interests and allow management to enrich themselves. Speculation only, but food for thought.

Hang on, it’s going to be a wild ride. A lot more to talk about now other than “who saved who!”

“Scope”

RR

 

[veritasaequitas]

Follow me here. It isn't a damages trial. It is a damages phase of an ** existing ** trial. There will be no more determining if a defendant is ** liable ** for damages, only the amount of the damages.

Go back and read the court records. It is a bifurcated trial.

I read the court records sir. The damages trial that never started, has been stayed by the Honorable Judge Wake. Frankly sir you are bifurcating hairs to enable the truth to be to your advantage in this discussion.

 

[Freebird]

Oh, wow! Did the 9th Circuit rule? I missed that. Can someone send the link? Freebird, how about you? Can you post the link for us on what the 9th had to say that will allow the damages phase to go forward? Thanks!



Oh, wow! That, too? The arbitrator ruled on the LOA 93 grievance and I missed that ruling, too. Can someone post the link to the decision? Freebird, how about you? You seem to have the information NO ONE ELSE ON THE PLANET has.

I get all my info from from the same source the delusional East pilots get it, the difference, is that I dont put any spin on it.

Keep saving your money for the damages trial. Maybe you can get a higher paid jetBlue pilot to loan you some money...find an E 190 pilot in the 5 year range, the one who makes more than you. After your illustrious career at AAA.

 

[hp_fa]

Go read pages 10-11 of Judge Wake's 53 page Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law and Order

 

[Black Swan]

I get all my info from from the same source the delusional East pilots get it, the difference, is that I dont put any spin on it.

Keep saving your money for the damages trial. Maybe you can get a higher paid jetBlue pilot to loan you some money...find an E 190 pilot in the 5 year range, the one who makes more than you. After your illustrious career at AAA.

Freebird- save your ammo. Don't show the cards you are going to use on UAL guys! Remember, their pay mirrors our East pay. Are you guys going to try to hold them down too? Maybe our ties(UAL and East) are stronger than ALPA on some issues going forward

 

[nic4us]

I was just watching NBC news and they were speculating that Doug Parker would be the head of the combined company. And yes, you're correct about them tip toeing around the "change in control" language.

Now the f/a's are all AFA but I would speculate ALPA would be voted back on the property. So how could NIC be implemented when ALPA just changed merger policy back to DOH?
( I just heard that too, so feel free to correct me)

ALPA did not change its merger policy to DOH. They added some language that says something to the effect of " give consideration for length of service", but that is within the context of other considerations as well.

ALPA would have no other choice but to use the Nic as the seniority list for an integration between LCC and UAL. Frankly, usapa would have no other choice than the Nic either. There is no other list.

Even if the scenario that the West was some how spun off, the Nic would be used, and guess what there are 1880 West names on that list.

 

[veritasaequitas]

Go read pages 10-11 of Judge Wake's 53 page Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law and Order

Your quote sir, "No would you be so kind as to answer the question, specifically how many of those thousands of summons and complaints have been served recently?"

I have not checked the mail today, but a Publishers Clearinghouse letter is more likely to be found out there than a summons. (I know how a summons is served, spare me the details concerning mailboxes.)

"Damages trial stayed", Judge Wake (February, 2010)

"IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

FOR THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA

Don Addington; John Bostic; Mark Burman; Afshin Iranpour; Roger Velez;Steve Wargocki,

Plaintiffs,

vs.

US Airline Pilots Association; US Airways, Inc.,

Defendants.



ORDER
CV08-1728-PHX-NVW

Before the Court are Plaintiffs’ Motion for Award of Attorneys’ Fees (doc. # 600) and Defendants’ Motion to Dismiss Second Amended Complaint (doc. # 620). On February 9, 2010, the counsel for all parties participated in a status conference with the Court regarding whether to stay proceedings in this Court pending the current appeal in the Ninth Circuit. The Court took the issue under advisement, set oral argument on pending motions on attorneys’ fees and dismissal tentatively for February 24, 2010, and indicated it would issue its ruling on a stay shortly. (Doc. # 634.) This is that ruling.

On July 23, 2009, USAPA filed a notice of appeal to the Ninth Circuit from the Partial Judgment and Permanent Injunction (doc. # 594) filed July 17, 2009, and sought an expeditious hearing. (Doc. # 595.) The Ninth Circuit processed USAPA’s appeal expeditiously and heard oral argument on December 8, 2009. The Ninth Circuit likely will also render its rulings on the appeal expeditiously.

The parties agree that if the Ninth Circuit reverses the July 17, 2009 partial judgment and permanent injunction, the pending motions will be moot, and staying proceedings will have had no adverse effect on Plaintiffs. If the Ninth Circuit affirms the partial judgment in favor of Plaintiffs, a stay will have delayed resolution of Plaintiffs’ claims for attorneys’ fees and individual damages for the length of the stay. Defendants seek a stay of one to three months. However, the Ninth Circuit may make rulings on the appeal that should be considered in deciding the pending motions to ensure that the Court’s rulings are consistent with the Ninth Circuit’s rulings. Weighing these competing legitimate interests, the Court concludes that it is likely that a decision on appeal will be made expeditiously and that the net balance of fairness and economy to all parties favors a stay of the pending motions and of the case until then.

IT IS THEREFORE ORDERED that Plaintiffs’ Motion for Award of Attorneys’ Fees (doc. # 600), Defendants’ Motion to Dismiss Second Amended Complaint (doc. # 620), the proceedings in this Court are stayed pending decision of the appeal of the July 17, 2009 partial judgment and permanent injunction in the Ninth Circuit, Case No. 09-16564, or until further order of this Court.

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED vacating the oral argument on Plaintiffs’ Motion for Award of Attorneys’ Fees (doc. # 600) and Defendants’ Motion to Dismiss Second Amended Complaint (doc. # 620) set for February 24, 2010.



DATED this 11th day of February, 2010.

Neil V. Wake
United States District Judge"

 

[Metroyet]

Yes, from the one that has no skin in the game, but can't stay out of the fight. Probably DAL or UAL. Ether way, it is a real problem for your all consuming cause.

How? I couldn't care less if you merge with United. What tools do you envision possessing that is going to change a single thing about the order and use of the Nic. award in any future negotiations? I'd advise you to re-familiarize yourself with the language of the Permanent Injunction that was issued by His Honor Neil M. Wake.

 

[Black Swan]

ALPA did not change its merger policy to DOH. They added some language that says something to the effect of " give consideration for length of service", but that is within the context of other considerations as well.

ALPA would have no other choice but to use the Nic as the seniority list for an integration between LCC and UAL. Frankly, usapa would have no other choice than the Nic either. There is no other list.

Even if the scenario that the West was some how spun off, the Nic would be used, and guess what there are 1880 West names on that list.

Who says ALPA is the controlling party in the integration? I agree with Reed Richards. This thing is now outside ALPA.How do you say ALPA is the driver when they got smoked off the property here? And now you know another reason we did it. Pretty smart, no? There is going to be a different way of doing things. This is not going to be good for anyone, east or west or UAL. Parker is going to make out. That is about it. If this deal hinges on a quick seniority integration, then it might not fly. The East certainly owes no help to Parker. As I said YESTERDAY, before the news, Parker has not been very smart at cultivating good relations with the East. If he needs us to make this happen, believe me, he will pay an expensive price to achieve his star.This better promise some excellent compensation, or it gets no East backing. Who knows what the price might be he has to pay to get a deal? And this is exactly why we also put CLEARY in. Best man for the job. Two SOLID moves on the East. Dumping ALPA, and getting CLEARY.

 

[Metroyet]

Some you from PHX may be correct here about new life for NIC, but you are missing the rational why.


Somewhere down the line a three way seniority negotiation will take place, with USAPA funding both an East and West Merger committee.

RR

This is patently incorrect even though the Easties will from now on believe this with all their might. A merger is between two airlines...two companies....not individual employee groups. US Air and UAL are the two airlines. Wake made it perfectly clear which list USAPA is legally bound to use for any and all negotiations with ANY organization, representative, or entity that may have to engage it for whatever reason. For any negotiations, there is ONLY one seniority list at US Airways. If any group, company, fake union or otherwise attempted another end run around that list, the merger dies as the West pilots keep the transaction tied up in court for years. Besides, there's would be another representational election voted on by all members...do you really think USAPA is going to win that election? 40% of their own pilots are itching to pull the trigger and end them and UAL is ALPA to the core. We all know what ALPA's legal obligation to support and defend the Nic. are. I also have to believe they're done pandering to the whiners out East. They tried that and the easties foolishly bit the hand that fed them.

If a merger moves fwd. there is nothing but false hopes and dead ends for USAPA to attempt another bite at the apple.

 

[nic4us]

Somewhere down the line a three way seniority negotiation will take place, with USAPA funding both an East and West Merger committee. RR

Reed,

Since you are the smartest man alive, I must ask, how does usapa seperate itself into east and West, after it wrote a whole discriminatory constitution to keep the minority West from having a voice in the first place?

You see, east and West seniority has already been merged, we will call it the Nic. There is no seperate east-West if LCC does a deal. UAl and/or ALPA are not going to monkey with the usapian DFR pattern of attempting to steal jobs and losing lawsuits. There would be two companies merging, not three. Therefore, there would be two list merging, not three.

Again, the east not understanding the position they are in, what a surprise.

 

[Black Swan]

This is patently incorrect even though the Easties will from now on believe this with all their might. A merger is between two airlines...two companies....not individual employee groups. US Air and UAL are the two airlines. Wake made it perfectly clear which list USAPA is legally bound to use for any and all negotiations with ANY organization, representative, or entity that may have to engage it for whatever reason. For any negotiations, there is ONLY one seniority list at US Airways. If any group, company, fake union or otherwise attempted another end run around that list, the merger dies as the West pilots keep the transaction tied up in court for years. Besides, there's would be another representational election voted on by all members...do you really think USAPA is going to win that election? 40% of their own pilots are itching to pull the trigger and end them and UAL is ALPA to the core. We all know what ALPA's legal obligation to support and defend the Nic. are. I also have to believe they're done pandering to the whiners out East. They tried that and the easties foolishly bit the hand that fed them.

If a merger moves fwd. there is nothing but false hopes and dead ends for USAPA to attempt another bite at the apple.

Do you really believe UAL pilots would allow the Nic to be a possible template for them to then get sodomized with? They are going to walk from that thing as fast as they can. They could do better with any method than that. Believe me, they are very aware of the age of the East. All you need are fences, and some time and that issue is dealt with. If they let you get away with the Nic, then they get the worst possible outcome. A guy with 3 yrs going ahead of a 20yr. UAL . No way.

 

[Black Swan]

Reed,

Since you are the smartest man alive, I must ask, how does usapa seperate itself into east and West, after it wrote a whole discriminatory constitution to keep the minority West from having a voice in the first place?

You see, east and West seniority has already been merged, we will call it the Nic. There is no seperate east-West if LCC does a deal. UAl and/or ALPA are not going to monkey with the usapian DFR pattern of attempting to steal jobs and losing lawsuits. There would be two companies merging, not three. Therefore, there would be two list merging, not three.

Again, the east not understanding the position they are in, what a surprise.

I say the three parties go back to Wye River, and get you guys to some realization of what you are up against to cash your little lottery ticket. You are going to get the full court press from a lot of angles to make this happen. And one outcome that will not be going forward is the Nic. You are going to run up against Wall Streeters and them making their fees, and the UAL boys. And contrary to what you think, they look at the Nic as an abortion that happened to someone else. Try to carry it forward, and you will get lost in the deal if you try and slow it down. If we can help them drop you off at the curb, believe me, it will happen.

 

[cleardirect]

Some you from PHX may be correct here about new life for NIC, but you are missing the rational why.

If this current (what is this, the 4th or 5th try at putting U and UAL together?) transaction has any legs, I think the NIC type proposal will again live, but the atmosphere in which it is revived will be so toxic it will not make it past its first breath. There is now a very strong chance no combined list will end up in a contract before a Merger, no matter who wins in the 9th. Simply no time, and once again events will overtake any seniority settlement between the two USAPA pilot groups.

I believe the Transition Agreement will have to be reopened in order to accommodate UAL, and right up front the East pilots will have an opportunity reap some parity rewards. Somewhere down the line a three way seniority negotiation will take place, with USAPA funding both an East and West Merger committee. The East will indeed find common ground and reach an agreement in principle with the UAL pilots, but the West will stand tough on a NIC logic list and shoot down any chances of a non arbitrated list. Good thing is since we have USAPA and ALPA in the mix, the arbitrated list will be determined not by ALPA merger policy , but by the method once called Allegheny-Mohawk. If we go into that process with an already agreed to logic worked out between the East pilots and UAL, do you really think an arbitration is going to go the way of 1600 pilots proposing the same type of inequities that spewed from a senile old man 4 years ago? Good luck with that.

There are many, many more possible iterations that could occur going forward, especially when you throw in East change of control logic. No telling what kind of deal we could craft in order to protect our interests and allow management to enrich themselves. Speculation only, but food for thought.

Hang on, it’s going to be a wild ride. A lot more to talk about now other than “who saved who!”

“Scope”

RR

Really! You really can not believe what you just wrote. Has the past 5 years completely escaped you?

One USAPA demanded and was given single carrier status. That means because of what the east pilot did there is but ONE merger committee. There is no east/ west merger committee.

Any parity reward will also include the west pilots. Remember single carrier usapa gets to hand over the same money to us also.

Two, this is the big one, there is a federal injunction that requires usapa to use the Nicolau list. As long as the ninth has NOT ruled against judge Wake that is in place. So you guys had better be praying every day that they rule in your favor. Because as long as they wait the injunction holds. So no three way integration it will be a two party N/M/A.

Third, UAL is ALPA, as you are all so found of saying it was an ALPA process so UAL will be required to abide by the Nicolau list.

 

[Metroyet]

Do you really believe UAL pilots would allow the Nic to be a possible template for them to then get sodomized with? They are going to walk from that thing as fast as they can. They could do better with any method than that. Believe me, they are very aware of the age of the East. All you need are fences, and some time and that issue is dealt with. If they let you get away with the Nic, then they get the worst possible outcome. A guy with 3 yrs going ahead of a 20yr. UAL . No way.

They may walk for a multitude of reasons. Each arbitrated seniority list is unique and turns on it's own merits, (to quote Nic.) So there is no reason to believe that any other merger would look exactly like the Nic. However, the NWA/DAL merger, (which to this DAY USAPA has not commented on) is probably a good indication of how things would go down. Here's the part you need to understand, If a pilot group goes to binding arbitration, they get NO SAY in the "template" as you suggest. That's what happens when you go to arbitration, that's why it's neutral, final and binding.

Maybe they'll learn from the East's mistakes and actually negotiate in good faith, offer solutions, and be reasonable. Perhaps they'll approach a merged seniority list as a give and take situation not the zero sum game, winner take all, that you guys tried.

I think it's in everybody's best interest to try and torpedo any Merger with UAL regardless of the disposition of the Nic. I wouldn't want to touch them with a 10' pole. Mergers are NEVER good news.