US Pilots Labor Discussion 4/6- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[psw737]

The real problem with everyones career expectations at this place is the fact that more than 50% of the east operation has been outsourced to rj's over the past 8 years. Keep giving the flying away and most of us will keep moving backwards, doesn't matter how long any of us have been here. This is something that more of us ought to be pissed off about and should try to focus some of this anger into trying to correct this in our next contract. This is a major issue and in the polls that were sent out earlier this week there was an entire section dedicated to getting some collective info on how we would like to see this fixed. Most seem to only care about pay and seniority though

 

[CallawayGolf]

The real problem with everyones career expectations at this place is the fact that more than 50% of the east operation has been outsourced to rj's over the past 8 years. Keep giving the flying away and most of us will keep moving backwards, doesn't matter how long any of us have been here. This is something that more of us ought to be pissed off about and should try to focus some of this anger into trying to correct this in our next contract. This is a major issue and in the polls that were sent out earlier this week there was an entire section dedicated to getting some collective info on how we would like to see this fixed. Most seem to only care about pay and seniority though

What next contract? USAPA and its supporters don't have the slightest interest in getting to a new contract. LOA93 forever is their mantra. Even if they did, management has little regard for USAPA demands because they have no leverage (i.e. pilot support) to negotiate with.

 

[Metroyet]

Most seem to only care about pay and seniority though

Well, because enough Easties fell for Lee Sehams lies, you can forget about any pay increases until there is a collective epiphany that the Nic. award is NEVER going to go away.

 

[Barrister]

The real problem with everyones career expectations at this place is the fact that more than 50% of the east operation has been outsourced to rj's over the past 8 years. Keep giving the flying away and most of us will keep moving backwards, doesn't matter how long any of us have been here. This is something that more of us ought to be pissed off about and should try to focus some of this anger into trying to correct this in our next contract. This is a major issue and in the polls that were sent out earlier this week there was an entire section dedicated to getting some collective info on how we would like to see this fixed. Most seem to only care about pay and seniority though

You are partially correct.....carreer expectations mean less and less....but for some time we have had 2 known quantities....a min fleet and dead certain retirements at NLT age 65.....it all made some sense until the parallell universe known as NIC came into being!!! If min fleet disappears (Kirby) and Congress says fly till you die ...then Career exp. is truly non-existant.

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[RSVP767]

And that's one of the fallacies in your argument - there is no status quo that lasts indefinitely. In early 2005, the outlook was for US to cease to exist - what was that "status quo" expectation for advancement through attrition then? The merger gave US a reprieve, so now you want to claim a different status quo existed all along.

"to a company who has experienced challenges in that regard through no fault of their own".

The second fallacy. Every concessionary agreement that the pilot group ratified added to the "challenges" faced - outsourcing mainline flying, increasing max pay hours, etc - so the East pilot group does indeed bear some responsibility. Furloughs lasted longer, advancement took longer, reductions reversed previous advancement, etc. Not all responsibility but some responsibility goes directly to the East pilot group. Now you want West to accept the effects of East pilots' votes while you make up for what was lost by those votes.

Jim

No kidding? Really? I'm soooo glad you pointed that out to me Jim. I don't have a crystal ball, nor do you, thus I stated some assumptions to frame my argument. It's not a falicy. It is a basis. Obviously, if we grow.......everyone fares better. If we shrink......everyone fares worse. I would think you are smart enough to figure that out Einstein. Yes, the East was shrinking. Concessions prolonged pain. Outsourcing hurt. But many times we had a gun to our head. Yes, the merge gave us a reprieve. However, without the painful choices we made, chances are we would not have been around for a merge as you pointed out. That didn't happen! My argument looks forward. Going forward, and absent a crystal ball, I assumed a no growth, no shrink scenario. Pretty much where we've been for a couple years and will stay most likely.

Your second point I will grant you. The pilot group does bear some responsibility. And no, I don't beleive the West should be penalized for the challenges we faced. I also don't beleive they should benefit from them.

 

[Barrister]

I ATFQ, why don't you just peruse back to page 43 of this thread and read it. Now why don't you just ATFQ and tell me why it matters?

I did go back and read it thank you. The giveaway was when you said you :"really don't pay much attention to it" soooooooo......does that mean that the NW guy you are senior to was at NW 3 years longer than you have been at DAL....if so, no wonder you "just don't pay much attention to it"

Please read the cases of Pot v. Kettle and Goose v. Gander. Pretty much sums up your contribution to these posts.

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Maybe Granaths emergency filing today has something to do with a future DFR, I guess I will be saying " BRICKYARD " quicker than we think! MM!

 

[Barrister]

Who is really to blame if a pilot spends his whole career in the right seat? Other than for the east pilots where else has this been an issue? Did AA, DL, CO, NW, or WN pilots have to deal with this kind of prospect in their careers? If not, why only US east pilots and who, if anyone, was to blame for that on September 26, 2005? The west pilots didn’t cause this problem. Doug Parker and AWA didn’t cause this problem. It existed long before the merger.

When the merger occurred it required the two pilots groups to come to an agreement on the terms of an integrated seniority system was reasonable for both groups. The NIC meets the pre-agreed upon conditions and it is reasonable for both groups to have the ability to retain the same seat/group they were able to hold prior to integration. The “fact” that a particular pilot will not upgrade is not anyone’s fault other than the pilot himself who chose to join a particular airline at a particular time which turned out to mean that his career would not advance as far as a pilot who joined a different airline at a time which would afford him the opportunity to upgrade. Blaming NIC or the west pilots for the circumstances that were beyond their control is like kicking the dog because you had a bad day at work. Wrong reaction and a wrong target of your frustrations.

Remember where this industry was before the hopefully temporary economic struggles the world is currently in? Predictions of pilot shortages and massive hiring/training were forecasted to meet demand. Things can change just as quickly if the economy and consumer demand recover.

IATA Pilot Shortage

BTW, I'm sorry you feel as though you are in a death spiral. However, closing your eyes and wishing you weren't in the situation won't make it go away. Better to deal with reality and find a better solution than to just ignore the obvious facts of the matter at hand.

Well the only way to really know will be to wait 2 more years if that can be done and then let 200 F/Os per year start to check out again on the East. I will say it again....Min fleet plus known age 63-65 y/o retirements is a known quantity for the East F/Os.. Time will tell. And even if we do merge we still have sep ops...LOA 93...min fleet....TIME WILL TELL. How long do you think it will take.....Here is the answer. Long enough for 500-800 East F/Os to move up and 40-50 West F/Os to move up. Don't count your Nickins before they hatch!!!!

VNIIMN
NPJB.

 

[CallawayGolf]

.....it all made some sense until the parallell universe known as NIC came into being!!!

VNIIMN
NPJB

It still does make excellent sense even with the NIC in place. He clearly explained his reason for issuing the award the way he did. How many chances did the east pilots have to prevent the NIC from becoming what it is - "THE LIST"? Let's see:
Negotiation - east responds with DOH or nothing
Mediation - east responds with DOH or nothing
Arbirtation - east responds with DOH or nothing
Arbitrator requests a moderated proposal - east responds with DOH or nothing

DOH was never, ever going to be accepted by the west or by the arbitrator. So the east maintained DOH and let someone else determine how the lists would be integrated. The NIC and the process used to get to the NIC makes perfect sense. The only parallel universe I detect is the one where east pilots still think DOH has a chance of becoming the list.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Your second point I will grant you. The pilot group does bear some responsibility. And no, I don't beleive the West should be penalized for the challenges we faced. I also don't beleive they should benefit from them.

So in your world a West 737 captain who maintains the seniority to hold 737 captain on the Nic "benefits" but an East pilot that could only hold junior 737 reserve F/O doesn't benefit when he can suddenly hold 757 captain merely because 2 airlines merged?

Nice set of assumptions...

Jim

 

[Freebird]

Well the only way to really know will be to wait 2 more years if that can be done and then let 200 F/Os per year start to check out again on the East. I will say it again....Min fleet plus known age 63-65 y/o retirements is a known quantity for the East F/Os.. Time will tell. And even if we do merge we still have sep ops...LOA 93...min fleet....TIME WILL TELL. How long do you think it will take.....Here is the answer. Long enough for 500-800 East F/Os to move up and 40-50 West F/Os to move up. Don't count your Nickins before they hatch!!!!

VNIIMN
NPJB.

Are you sure you don't have any skin in the game? You're awfully concerned considering you've been a captain for 29 years....did you say you were a Captain in your own mind?

Regardless, your groups ethics are askew. The industry see your antics for what they are. Seriously 'bro' they're laughing AT you. But you don't care, your big PBGC money will kick in any day now right?

Shove your resolve with a vote. What are you afraid of?

NRBAGFY

 

[hp_fa]

I am responding to a post that showed up in the merger thread. Because I didn't discuss merger very much in this response I intentionally posted my response here, where I thought my response was more appropriate.

For US Airways' pilots and other employees, at least USAPA's Emergency Order should cause the 9th Circuit to issue their ruling on the Addington Appeal in short order, which might be USAPA's way of agreeing to Doug Parker's demands. And, of course the pilot seniority integration litigation will take one more step towards closure for all parties interested in the success of US Airways.

I disagree to the extent that I believe that the 9th will issue its Opinion when they are ready. USAPA, through its counsel, has, however, demonstrated to the 9th just the kind of tactics and hyperbole that it used in the trial court, which could well enlighten the panel on why Judge Wake wrote his Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law in the manner that he did.

I doubt merger rumors equate to an "emergency". Also citing nothing more than public news sources and an argument to the court that "we know something but can't tell you" is flimsy at best.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I doubt merger rumors equate to an "emergency". Also citing nothing more than public news sources and an argument to the court that "we know something but can't tell you" is flimsy at best.

Attaching exhibits that weren't included/submitted at the trial court amounts to new evidence. What on Earth are they doing submitting new evidence to an appeals court? They needed to start at the District Court and have him stay the injunction (yeah, good luck with that!). After that, then they could proceed to the 9th. This is first year CivPro folks; nothing hard about it.

Once again, the legal brain trust at USAPA hasn't thought this one through.

 

[RSVP767]

So in your world a West 737 captain who maintains the seniority to hold 737 captain on the Nic "benefits" but an East pilot that could only hold junior 737 reserve F/O doesn't benefit when he can suddenly hold 757 captain merely because 2 airlines merged?

Nice set of assumptions...

Jim

Fences Jim. They were needed in this merge to protect the big disparity. You know it!

 

[aquagreen73s]

Fences would be fine if you could fence off your high costs. AWA was running costs in the 7 cent range before we met you. Unfortunately whatever revenue bump that we've experienced has been far offset by the sky high costs you've given us. Heck, even the East can't afford their costs. Nobody can afford your costs!