US Pilots Labor Discussion 4/6- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[veritasaequitas]

I give you props for moving away from Wikipedia for your information.

He has an interesting point, but he's not on the 9th. Neither are the B&W folks. And both their blogs are almost a year old.

No one's put out anything more recent?

If you see something on Wikipedia America West Airlines, that is not true, please bring it to the readers attention.

There is nothing new to put out about the Addington Case.

 

[HP2USFA]

If you see something on Wikipedia America West Airlines, that is not true, please bring it to the readers attention.

There is nothing new to put out about the Addington Case.

Well aside from some missing information, such as William Franke's tenure as CEO, and incorrect information (such as the cease operations date in the info facts box), it all seems in order. But I've better things to do than spend countless hours on a fruitless battle of wits with you over the validity of Wikipedia. Like finish 6 months of CBTs before the end of the month, tailor my replacement uniform pieces, find a cellular provider, fix my luggage and finish this semester of school.

Here's hoping the 9th rules in our lifetimes!

 

[A320 Driver]

So. When I cast my vote on a contract I am not voting for pay rates? Or duty rigs? Or retirement contribution percentages?

Or seniority?

RR

Well, in this case it does. I won't vote for anything that s not an improvement in ALL areas of the contract. I want my vacation back and I want it to be worth something. Until I get it, and the rest that goes with it, the Nic can sit there and gather dust like everything else.

Driver B) B)

 

[Poug Darker]

Well, in this case it does. I won't vote for anything that s not an improvement in ALL areas of the contract. I want my vacation back and I want it to be worth something. Until I get it, and the rest that goes with it, the Nic can sit there and gather dust like everything else.

Driver B) B)

No matter how good the payrates and vacation and duty rigs are, the NIC can never be the list.
We've all seen how pay and benefits can evaporate, why sell the only item of value for 'thirty pieces of silver'?
Seniority, fueled by pending attrition will eclipse any fleeting pay raise.
Sorry, no windfall for the west. Looks like we move into the merger utilizing three separate lists, and negotiate a new combined one.
Cheers.

 

[jimntx]

Looks like we move into the merger utilizing three separate lists, and negotiate a new combined one.
Cheers.

You sure about that? UA pilots are represented by ALPA. AW pilots were represented by ALPA. "Original" US Airways pilots are not exactly on ALPA's Christmas card list. What are you going to do if ALPA (and the surviving company, aka United) says, "Wait a minute. An arbitrator demanded by the pilots now belonging to USAPA has ruled on the issue already. A court has backed up that ruling. We have two lists to work with--ours and the Nicolau."

There are a lot of unemployed pilots on the market these days. ALPA and the company might just be willing to let you walk away with your "DOH principles" intact.

As BoeingBoy (one of the true voices of reason on this board) posted in another thread...
"Guess when the last arbitrated pilot seniority integration was that resulted in DOH. As best as I remember it was the US/PI arbitration in 1989 - over 20 years ago. There have been 3 pilot seniority integrations since then that went to arbitration and they all ended up with modified relative position (slotting if you want although the IAM uses that term for DOH) - Shuttle/US, DL/NW, US/HP. Modified because differences in fleets were considered.

It seems that arbitrators have decided to some degree that seniority isn't necessarily a date on a calendar but what one can hold, especially airplane/seat wise."

Just a thought.

 

[Poug Darker]

You sure about that? UA pilots are represented by ALPA. AW pilots were represented by ALPA. "Original" US Airways pilots are not exactly on ALPA's Christmas card list. What are you going to do if ALPA (and the surviving company, aka United) says, "Wait a minute. An arbitrator demanded by the pilots now belonging to USAPA has ruled on the issue already. A court has backed up that ruling. We have two lists to work with--ours and the Nicolau."

There are a lot of unemployed pilots on the market these days. ALPA and the company might just be willing to let you walk away with your "DOH principles" intact. Just a thought.

I would think that the seniority list issue will be worked out first between USAPA, ALPA, and the company. The results might have to pass muster with the judge, depending on the decision of the 9th. But if a deal is to be done, the easties must be behind it - meaning Doug has to back the east...or no deal.
Only after a seniority solution is found, and a TA is ratified, will we have a representation election. Only after a winner is declared will one CBA have full authority over future proceedings. Anything prior to that is just chest thumping. ALPA holds no authority here (and hopefully never will).
Me thinks you're putting the cart before the horse, kemo sabe.
Cheers.

 

[FWAAA]

I have to agree with jimntx; if US merges with UA, UA pilots will outnumber US pilots (East and West combined) and will outnumber US East pilots by a substantial margin. Looks fairly obvious (to me, at least) that the pilots would end up being represented by ALPA. My guess is that ALPA already sees one settled seniority list - the one Nicolau created. Don't see how a small minority of pilots (US East) could possibly prevent the implementation of the Nic list.

 

[Poug Darker]

I have to agree with jimntx; if US merges with UA, UA pilots will outnumber US pilots (East and West combined) and will outnumber US East pilots by a substantial margin. Looks fairly obvious (to me, at least) that the pilots would end up being represented by ALPA. My guess is that ALPA already sees one settled seniority list - the one Nicolau created. Don't see how a small minority of pilots (US East) could possibly prevent the implementation of the Nic list.

First, there has to be an election...ALPA just doesn't magically take over when the deal is announced. Prior to the election, the individual bargaining agents have to sit down and hash things out - before a deal can be done.
USAPA represents all USAirways pilots, no? ALPA represents United's aviators. Negotiation must ensue between the two, and an agreement forged: a new T/A with a seniority list for the combined carrier. It isn't going to work any other way this time, folks.
ALPA has no say over what list USAPA brings to the table. And after a new list is ratified via voting on the T/A, the NIC will be rendered moot.
After all this stuff happens, then a representation election for the combined carrier can be conducted. And you're right, it seems that ALPA has the majority...but never discount those at UAL who lost their pensions and more as a direct result of ALPA leadership. It might be time to direct one's own destiny without Herndon and it's excesses.
Oh, and if the NIC is forced upon the east for any reason, the vote will fail, and so will the deal.
Cheers.

 

[jimntx]

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I've noticed that the "East" pilots (for want of a better term) seem hell-bent to totally ignore the often-overlooked Law of Unintended Consequences. I turned 65 last month (just think if I were a pilot I would already be retired and working in my yard ). It's been my experience in my life that every time there has been only one solution to a problem--i.e., my solution--and I have refused to even consider other options, it has not turned out well for me.

Consider this scenario...LCC and UAUA anticipate problems coming from USAPA, and a Plan B is already in place. Plan B says that LCC closes its doors and goes out of business. At the yard sale, UAUA or another carrier picks up (at bargain prices) the "attractive" pieces of LCC (whatever those may be...that's another argument).

Former employees of LCC are encouraged to apply for positions at UAUA, and "will be given every consideration in the hiring process." There will be the stipulation, of course, that if one is applying for a represented position, one must understand that all union employees start at the bottom of the seniority list.

 

[700UW]

Actually there doesnt have to be an election, at US/HP there was no election for mechanics nor rampers as the west side did not meet the 35% makeup, therefore the IAM was acclimated on both groups.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Poug,

I don't know what you use as a basis for insisting that the seniority and TA (transition agreement or tentative agreement?) be worked out before a representational election, because nothing requires that - at least the seniority part of it if you mean a transition agreement. While that was what happened with the DL/NW merger for the pilots (TA=tentative agreement) it is not required to be that way - it just happened that way because seniority took longer than a tentative agreement. Just look at the DL/NW F/A's - still haven't even begun negotiations (since AFA doesn't represent all F/A's there) and all the AFA has been waiting on to file for a representational election seems to be timing with the NMB and it's newest member.

For another example, just look at the election of USAPA - no TA (tentative agreement) and as far as the East, who elected USAPA, was concerned no seniority list.. Why you believe that was perfectly proper but couldn't happen in a hypothetical US/UA merger escapes me.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Actually there doesnt have to be an election,

True, but it is likely that US would have 35% or more of the total pilot group making an election mandatory.

Jim

 

[FWAAA]

Poug: I'm not trying to pick on you, but the irony was just too rich, so here goes:

So the seniority integration is worked out before the representational election? You mean like at US Airways when the pilots of US and HP submitted the issue to binding arbitration? And then held a representational election (resulting in USAPA)? After the seniority questions had already been decided?

As BoeingBoy has pointed out, there's no requirement to settle seniority first.

 

[OTTER574]

First, there has to be an election...ALPA just doesn't magically take over when the deal is announced. Prior to the election, the individual bargaining agents have to sit down and hash things out - before a deal can be done.
USAPA represents all USAirways pilots, no? ALPA represents United's aviators. Negotiation must ensue between the two, and an agreement forged: a new T/A with a seniority list for the combined carrier. It isn't going to work any other way this time, folks.
ALPA has no say over what list USAPA brings to the table. And after a new list is ratified via voting on the T/A, the NIC will be rendered moot.
After all this stuff happens, then a representation election for the combined carrier can be conducted. And you're right, it seems that ALPA has the majority...but never discount those at UAL who lost their pensions and more as a direct result of ALPA leadership. It might be time to direct one's own destiny without Herndon and it's excesses.
Oh, and if the NIC is forced upon the east for any reason, the vote will fail, and so will the deal.
Cheers.

You forgot something and it's a big one that usapa MUST FOLLOW.

Read the following excerpt from Judge Wake’s injunction:



IT IS FURTHER ORDERED, ADJUDGED, AND DECREED in No. CV 08-1633 PHX-NVW in favor of the Plaintiffs and the class of all pilots employed by US Airways, Inc., in September 2008 who were on the America West seniority list on September 20, 2005, that Defendant US Airline Pilots Association and its officers, committees, representatives, agents, and all persons in active concert and participation with them are permanently enjoined and ordered to:


A. Immediately, and in good faith, make all reasonable efforts to negotiate and implement a single collective bargaining agreement with US Airways that will implement the Nicolau Award seniority proposal unmodified, according to its terms;


B. Make all reasonable efforts to support and defend the seniority rights provided by or arising from the Nicolau Award in negotiations with US Airways; and


C. Not negotiate for separate collective bargaining agreements for the separate pilot groups, but rather negotiate for a single collective bargaining agreement for both pilot groups that incorporates the Nicolau Award. This injunction does not restrain USAPA from pursuing its rights under Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act, consistent with the previous sentence.


The Court retains jurisdiction to enforce, modify, or dissolve the permanent injunction portion of this order. The Court retains jurisdiction to adjudicate the named Plaintiffs’ unadjudicated claims for damages and any claims for attorney fees.


DATED this 17th day of July 2009


Neil V. Wake

United States District Judge





Pay particular attention to the first sentence in the final paragraph that is highlighted in red. That is where Judge Wake retains jurisdiction to modify the injunction as there is no way he could possibly predict every potential act that might affect our rights which are protected under the injunction. In other words, it would be impossible for Judge Wake to predict how USAPA might try to evade the award or dilute the seniority rights of the America West pilots contained in the Nicolau Award. What we have now is the potential for a second situation which requires the court’s attention – the use of the Nicolau list in a future seniority integration. If this situation develops to the point where our rights are threatened, then there is a relatively easy method for us to bring the matter before Judge Wake and have him decide. We will not publicly predict how Judge Wake would rule in such an instance, but we would certainly argue the matter before him with confidence, and then we would await his decision without anxiety. If you feel differently, then you need to read Documents 593 and 594 in their entirety.


Sincerely,

Leonidas, LLC

 

[CallawayGolf]

Consider this scenario...LCC and UAUA anticipate problems coming from USAPA, and a Plan B is already in place. Plan B says that LCC closes its doors and goes out of business. At the yard sale, UAUA or another carrier picks up (at bargain prices) the "attractive" pieces of LCC (whatever those may be...that's another argument).

The Stockholders aren't just going to abandon their chances of getting a return on their investment. Right now they have a negative equity position meaning the company's debts are larger than the book value of the assets. Stockholders are going to want a chance to convert their stock into the new world's second largest carrier in the hope that the new company will yield much better returns on investment.

This whole line of reasoning seems predicated on the false assumption that management and the BOD somehow need the pilot's agreement in order for a transaction to occur. They don't so it would be far better for the groups to come to an understanding of how to move forward should a deal occur rather than sitting around expecting management to dump piles of cash in their laps to win their support. That is simply not going to happen and USAPA's days are numbered if this transaction gets an official announcement from US/UA. I suspect a strong possibility that ALPA would be voted back in at US prior to the transaction's close because the pilot's at US know that USAPA is utterly incapable of representing their interests and the post-merger company will almost certainly go with ALPA as the CBA no matter what the east pilots do, think or say. USAPA is facing its final act after a truly feeble and worthless performance after two years of bumbling their way through at the expense of all US pilots.