US Pilots Labor Discussion 4/6- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Poug Darker]

Poug,

I don't know what you use as a basis for insisting that the seniority and TA (transition agreement or tentative agreement?) be worked out before a representational election, because nothing requires that - at least the seniority part of it if you mean a transition agreement. While that was what happened with the DL/NW merger for the pilots (TA=tentative agreement) it is not required to be that way - it just happened that way because seniority took longer than a tentative agreement. Just look at the DL/NW F/A's - still haven't even begun negotiations (since AFA doesn't represent all F/A's there) and all the AFA has been waiting on to file for a representational election seems to be timing with the NMB and it's newest member.

For another example, just look at the election of USAPA - no TA (tentative agreement) and as far as the East, who elected USAPA, was concerned no seniority list.. Why you believe that was perfectly proper but couldn't happen in a hypothetical US/UA merger escapes me.

Jim

TA Transition agreement. Pilots for both airlines don't want to be screwed. If they follow typical ALPA advice to 'agree on the principals and worry about the language later', we're all doomed. EVERYTHING must be worked out in advance: seniority, pay (yes, equal pay for equal work this time), and the rest of it...
What happened at DL/NW was a direct result of watching the US/AW pilots performed the perfect FU'd merger. Nobody wants that again, especially those who have lived through it. DL/NW is a good template and timeline with tweaks for the specific goals of US pilots.
Fortunately for US pilots, the vote on any transition agreement will go out to the membership. Pilots at both carriers should expect it to be a very good deal.
Cheers.

 

[Metroyet]

I would think that the seniority list issue will be worked out first between USAPA, ALPA, and the company. The results might have to pass muster with the judge, depending on the decision of the 9th. But if a deal is to be done, the easties must be behind it - meaning Doug has to back the east...or no deal.
Only after a seniority solution is found, and a TA is ratified, will we have a representation election. Only after a winner is declared will one CBA have full authority over future proceedings. Anything prior to that is just chest thumping. ALPA holds no authority here (and hopefully never will).
Me thinks you're putting the cart before the horse, kemo sabe.
Cheers.

Do you just pull this out of somewhere or is Seham selling more snake oil?

Here are the Facts:

ALPA National and all it's affiliates have to defend the Nic. If UAL ignores it they get sued. The company has to honor the nic. If they ignore it they get sued. USAPA has to honor the nic. If they Ignore it....the get sued....they've already lost, the 9th is going to confirm, and if they try another end run around the Permanent Injunction, The Honorable Neil. M. Wake, won't need any assistance from AOL to smack them back into place. You have nowhere to run.

AOL has far more ability to scuttle this proposed merger due to seniority integration than USAPA. I'd prefer to see this merger fail anyway. Nobody mentions the fact that UAL isn't in the best financial condition. I know what happened last time Doug went on a shopping spree for a dying carrier....it wasn't pretty.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Parker is not responsible for the five-year delay in integrating the pilots and FAs.

Maybe not directly. But if he had bargained in good faith, rather than playing the skinflint miser (e.g. the Kirby offer...what a joke), early in the process, we may have had a ratified single contract BEFORE Nicolau published his mess. Of course, had he done that, the merger would be behind us. The west pilots would be happy as pigs in s---, um, slop! A boatload of east f/o's would have quit in disgust and found better jobs, flying or not. Parker would still be an industry darling. And LCC would be well positioned to be scooped with little fanfare up by another carrier.

If only he had offered MOST of the best aspects of the pilots' different contracts, with a 6 or 7% raise for the west and parity for the east, this entire discussion for the last several years would have never happened.

I wonder if he regrets that lost opportunity to excel among his peers? I wonder if he will ever understand the high price of cheap?

 

[jimntx]

The Stockholders aren't just going to abandon their chances of getting a return on their investment. Right now they have a negative equity position meaning the company's debts are larger than the book value of the assets. Stockholders are going to want a chance to convert their stock into the new world's second largest carrier in the hope that the new company will yield much better returns on investment.

Uh, yeah. Like people in Hell want ice water. In which particular airline bankruptcy did the wants/needs of the stockholders come first? I'm assuming you have a precedent for the above statements. Under Federal law, stockholders come absolutely last as debtors in a bankruptcy. They get paid only if there is money left over after all the other debts have been addressed. And, since going into bankruptcy means that your debts are larger than your assets, it is highly unusual for anything to be left over for the stockholders.

If the stockholders come last in bankruptcy, I don't see them as being at the head of the class before bankruptcy.
Any purchase of common stock is assumed to be as equally certain of a return as a roll at the crap tables in Vegas. Maybe it pays off. Maybe it doesn't.

Oh, and let's not forget that the executives of both airlines probably get paid big bucks for the merger outcome whether or not it is good for the airlines or the stockholders. It's the Amurrican way.

 

[BoeingBoy]

EVERYTHING must be worked out in advance: seniority, pay (yes, equal pay for equal work this time), and the rest of it...

Care to cite some authority for that? Again, look at USAPA's electiion before pay, etc was finalized. DL/NW, although they learned from US/HP, was a matter of timing luck - they could have just as as easily come to a negotiated seniority settlement prior to a contract.

If you're claiming that somehow the East pilots have the leverage to hold off an election till everything else is wrapped up I think you're over-estimating your power. You couldn't eliminate the Nic award with the voting majority. What makes you think you can affect everything when in the minority?

Jim

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Nic is not going away. If anyone thinks they can gerrymander something away from Nic, they are mistaken. If the merge goes thru, HP pilots and UA pilots are the majority and the US folk will just have to live with it, because, as they so often state "majority rules"

The irony is so thick and delicious.

 

[aquagreen73s]

You couldn't eliminate the Nic award with the voting majority. What makes you think you can affect everything when in the minority?

Jim

Assuming this transaction actually takes place (a big IF IMO), 2/3rds of the new majority is '92 DOH or later. So let's ask the question, would the new majority be amenable to DOH where 1989 hire date is a bottom gear yanker at the new minority? Hmmmm....thinking . . .thinking. . . .thinking . . .

 

[CallawayGolf]

Uh, yeah. Like people in Hell want ice water. In which particular airline bankruptcy did the wants/needs of the stockholders come first? I'm assuming you have a precedent for the above statements. Under Federal law, stockholders come absolutely last as debtors in a bankruptcy. They get paid only if there is money left over after all the other debts have been addressed. And, since going into bankruptcy means that your debts are larger than your assets, it is highly unusual for anything to be left over for the stockholders.

If the stockholders come last in bankruptcy, I don't see them as being at the head of the class before bankruptcy.
Any purchase of common stock is assumed to be as equally certain of a return as a roll at the crap tables in Vegas. Maybe it pays off. Maybe it doesn't.

Oh, and let's not forget that the executives of both airlines probably get paid big bucks for the merger outcome whether or not it is good for the airlines or the stockholders. It's the Amurrican way.

My comments never mentioned bankruptcy. Also, since I was logically refuting your prediction of liquidation, my statements stand. I agree stockholders are last in line during either bankruptcy or liquidation but neither of those scenarios is on the horizon and really aren't worth discussing. As long as the company remains out of bankruptcy protection the stockholders have the final say in any decision to sell or liquidate. Since liquidation yields them no return at this point, they will either stay the course or elect to merge with UA of whoever they choose. At any rate, your predicted scenario is the least likely of all outcomes.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I agree stockholders are last in line during either bankruptcy or liquidation but neither of those scenarios is on the horizon and really aren't worth discussing. As long as the company remains out of bankruptcy protection the stockholders have the final say in any decision to sell or liquidate. Since liquidation yields them no return at this point, they will either stay the course or elect to merge with UA of whoever they choose. At any rate, your predicted scenario is the least likely of all outcomes.

I disagree - BK is on the horizon for both carriers and that's why this merger is coming up now. However, UAL probably has more options than Parker and LCC, so UAL arguably has the flexibility to use this supposed merger as a means to an end other than actually merging. Parker, OTOH, has few cards left; he needs to merge. I agree with the rest of your statement regarding shareholders and that's how this will be sold to them (if it gets that far): something is better than nothing. If this deal gets sewn up, then that's when the bad stuff starts happening for labor. Parker and/or Tilton will whip out the paring knife and start cutting away via asset divestitures. There's plenty that others would want, but the question is what will be the state of the economy in twelve, eighteen, twenty-four months? Will the other airlines have the cash then to buy the divestitures or will they even have to will to part with precious cash? At some price they will, but selling in bad market is not good for the seller. The alternative is to actually run an airline with what would be merged, but the problem again is managements at both companies: neither has the ability to run an airline over the long run. One thing's for sure, we're entering crunch time for this industry and after it's all over, there will be fewer players left.

 

[luvn737s]

I wonder if he regrets that lost opportunity to excel among his peers? I wonder if he will ever understand the high price of cheap?

Are you serious? By abdicating his responsibility to lead, he allows USAPA to tear themselves up which distracts from what he's able to do, mainly extend the benefits of LOA 93 long into a recovery. He is a hero for stretching the benefits of a crisis for 7-10 years. Plus he gave USAPA enough rope to hang themselves, so that they lose so much support from the pilots that they get voted out. Cleary loans him millions in labor cost savings and Parker never has to pay it back. Parker has given the east the west pilots as a chew toy, albeit a very expensive one.

No, NYC, you have misread this one. Parker is a hero to his peers. Most of them dream of such a schism between their pilots that has yielded virtually no operational downside and huge cost benefits.

Arpey, Smisek and Anderson are all asking, "Where's my Cleary?"

 

[hp_fa]

I'm wondering if the biggest winner in all of this, if it does occur, would be Southwest.

p.s - Let me edit this and add the caveat, "besides the insiders".

 

[jimntx]

My comments never mentioned bankruptcy. Also, since I was logically refuting your prediction of liquidation, my statements stand. I agree stockholders are last in line during either bankruptcy or liquidation but neither of those scenarios is on the horizon and really aren't worth discussing. As long as the company remains out of bankruptcy protection the stockholders have the final say in any decision to sell or liquidate. Since liquidation yields them no return at this point, they will either stay the course or elect to merge with UA of whoever they choose. At any rate, your predicted scenario is the least likely of all outcomes.

How exactly do you think liquidation is accomplished other than through a Chapter 7 bankruptcy? I was putting that forward as a possible scenario that will ruin the futures of all LCC employees, not just the pilots. Again, I ask you. Exactly what particular cases do you know of where the stockholders were consulted or allowed a vote on a bankruptcy? Yes, if the merger reaches that stage (which I sort of doubt), the stockholders will be asked to vote on whatever stock swap is offered. (I don't think stockholder cash or buyouts will ensue.)

I'm not saying that liquidation is a certainty. I was simply putting forth the possibility as an argument to the East pilot who insists that USAPA has final say on any merger or corporate action. Nothing could be further from the truth. "My way or the highway" is an argument that should only be used by people whose trust funds have both matured and survived the latest Wall Street meltdown.

 

[CallawayGolf]

How exactly do you think liquidation is accomplished other than through a Chapter 7 bankruptcy? I was putting that forward as a possible scenario that will ruin the futures of all LCC employees, not just the pilots. Again, I ask you. Exactly what particular cases do you know of where the stockholders were consulted or allowed a vote on a bankruptcy? Yes, if the merger reaches that stage (which I sort of doubt), the stockholders will be asked to vote on whatever stock swap is offered. (I don't think stockholder cash or buyouts will ensue.)

I'm not saying that liquidation is a certainty. I was simply putting forth the possibility as an argument to the East pilot who insists that USAPA has final say on any merger or corporate action. Nothing could be further from the truth. "My way or the highway" is an argument that should only be used by people whose trust funds have both matured and survived the latest Wall Street meltdown.

Technically you don't need to file for Chapter 7 to cease operations and liquidate the assets which seemed to be the point you were originally making. While some go straight to Chapter 7, most companies start out with Chapter 11 and then move to Chapter 7 receivership when all hope of recovery is lost. At any rate, I would put the odds of Chapter 11 to be far less than 1% at this point – I don’t know that the industry analysts are even hinting at that kind of speculation at this point. The odds of Chapter 7 or a self-imposed liquidation are so extraordinarily small at this stage of the game that it really isn’t worth discussing.

That leaves the BODs and stockholders of both UA & US to make the stock merger transaction with approval from the DOJ. The USAPA supporting pilots always want to think they have more power and control over their situation than they actually do. Reality will become known soon enough to those who are running on blind, illogical emotion.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Parker just telegraphed the West the price of admission to any new activities.
“the 24% solution.”

RR

I knew the America West theft of East flying was bad when I saw the "Shining Stars" doing CLT/ATL/CLT turns all day - I never dreamed it was THIS bad.

 

[nic4us]

Do you just pull this out of somewhere or ...............................

Here are the Facts:

ALPA National and all it's affiliates have to defend the Nic. If UAL ignores it they get sued. The company has to honor the nic. If they ignore it they get sued. USAPA has to honor the nic. If they Ignore it....the get sued.....................


AOL has far more ability to scuttle this proposed merger due to seniority integration than USAPA.

Yeah, they pull it out of the same "Somewhere" the UAL NC would tell them to put their thumbs, if they came to the table without the Nic.

It is not like the UAL negotiating committee is unaware of the Nic. They made a 26 page powerpoint presentation highlighting its abundance of fairness, equitable distribution of positions, and wisdom of the arbitrator. They would be accountably remiss, if they were to deal with usapa on the grounds of any other seniority distribution scheme cooked up by the association found liable of DFR. In other words, they are not going to assume the liability for the DFR going forward.