US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/17- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cubfan]

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You should be demanding that the pilots be allowed to vote and prove your resolve. Over and over again if necessary.

How can you brag about the vote you refuse to cast just so that you can retain control over the status quo? That is what will give Judge Wake the most heartburn. You can't deny the pilots the ability to cast their vote just because of the consequences of not having the majority you think you do.

We better get something respectable to vote on, Kirby is not it.

 

[nycbusdriver]

You should be demanding that the pilots be allowed to vote and prove your resolve. Over and over again if necessary.

Why? Just to please the west pilots? We know the company has not offered anything realistic. We've been told as much by the NAC. If the NAC is holding back information, don;t you think the company would "leak" out the fact that they have offered a decent contract and the NAC is dragging their feet? The company has nothing on the table we are interested in, so we are not going to shout for a vote simply to please the west.

Ain't gonna happen. Go cry to Wake and see if he can fix that situation for you, too. Let us know what he says.

 

[cubfan]

I won't address the NIC. But if your starting point is the Kirby, which means you accept that as a possible end point or outcome, then you have relegated yourself to mediocrity. Kirby and Parker must love pilots with attitudes such as yours.

We are entitled to and we have earned an industry standard contract.

Stop selling yourself and the rest of us short - before the real battle has even begun.

KV

I think he is the minority on the west. If he thinks that the Kirby is fair, then he doesn't think much of his profession, I think he was pulling our leg, just getting a slap in against the union.



mm

 

[hp_fa]

If the neg.comm starts to think the Kirby is fair, they will get the big boot also.

Anyone can feel free to educate me if I have this wrong, but my understanding is the Negotiating Committee has no power to agree to any sections of the contract and that power resides solely with the BPR. If this is indeed the case, were I the company, I would refuse to negotiate unless either the BPR negotiates the contract or they change this provision. Rule #1 in Negotiating 101 is to never negotiate against yourself. Why should I, as a hypothetical negotiator, negotiate with anyone who has no power to really negotiate? That would be like USAPA negotiating with the guys that drive the honey bucket trucks. In other words, a complete waste of time. (Waste, honey buckets, aren't I witty today.)

So feel free to educate me because if I am correct I sure as heck wouldn't expect the company to meaningfully negotiate nor would I expect that the Mediation person from the NMB would agree that the company refusing to negotiate in that scenario would be wrong or otherwise allow the 30-day cooling off period to occur.

 

[cubfan]

Anyone can feel free to educate me if I have this wrong, but my understanding in the Negotiating Committee has no power to agree to any sections of the contract and that power resides solely with the BPR. If this is indeed the case, were I the company, I would refuse to negotiate unless either the BPR negotiates the contract or they change this provision. Rule #1 in Negotiating 101 is to never negotiate against yourself. Why should I, as a hypothetical negotiator, negotiate with anyone who has no power to really negotiate? That would be like USAPA negotiating with the guys that drive the honey bucket trucks. In other words, a complete waste of time. (Waste, honey buckets, aren't I witty today.)

So feel free to educate me because if I am correct I sure as heck wouldn't expect the company to meaningfully negotiate nor would I expect that the Mediation person from the NMB would agree that the company refusing to negotiate in that scenario would be wrong or otherwise allow the 30-day cooling off period to occur.

Hp,
Thanks, I agree. What I ment was they ought to stand their ground, and never bring that back to the BPR or pilots, east or west. If the BPR starts to think it's fair, they to should get the boot. And yes you are rather WITTY. With the offer so far, I'm not sure were not dealing with the honey bucket driver dressed up as MGT. As they say in that food commercial"SECURITY".

 

[nycbusdriver]

Anyone can feel free to educate me if I have this wrong, but my understanding in the Negotiating Committee has no power to agree to any sections of the contract and that power resides solely with the BPR. If this is indeed the case, were I the company, I would refuse to negotiate unless either the BPR negotiates the contract or they change this provision. Rule #1 in Negotiating 101 is to never negotiate against yourself. Why should I, as a hypothetical negotiator, negotiate with anyone who has no power to really negotiate? That would be like USAPA negotiating with the guys that drive the honey bucket trucks. In other words, a complete waste of time. (Waste, honey buckets, aren't I witty today.)

So feel free to educate me because if I am correct I sure as heck wouldn't expect the company to meaningfully negotiate nor would I expect that the Mediation person from the NMB would agree that the company refusing to negotiate in that scenario would be wrong or otherwise allow the 30-day cooling off period to occur.

You have it wrong. The NAC is tasked by the BPR to negotiate the contract. If the company wants to demand that the BPR be there, then why can't the BPR demand that Parker, Kirby, and the entire BOD of the company also be present? (Time to brush up on RLA?)

The NAC has the latitude to reject what the company proposed, and to tentatively accept proposals. Kind of like a power of attorney. (Are you familiar with the concept?)

Once the NAC has closed all sections with what they feel is acceptable, they present it to the BPR which can then reject it and send the NAC back to the table, or send it to the membership for a vote with an endorsement for ratification, a recommendation to reject it or without comment.

The power to ratify rest solely in the members in good standing. That's it. So, if the company needs the real power at the negotiating table, they need to rent out a venue like Radio City Music Hall to get the 3000+ pilots to attend.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Callaway,

out of touch with reality, I hope not. I've made my feelings known about the Nic, also my gut feeling about the ninth leans closer to HPfa. The ninth will probably stay with NIC, but also rule no damage until something else is tried. If your hoping for a big settlement through damages, then you also are living in fantasy island. Now back to more important stuff.

I surely hope you don't feel the Kirby is a realistic or fair offer. That is way below industry standard, you and I are better than the Kirby. Are you saying that your not worth as much as CO,DL, AA, SWA, JetBlue. If the neg.comm starts to think the Kirby is fair, they will get the big boot also. This is exactly playing into their hands. I say, if thats all they can offer now, so be it, I'll keep what I have. Or better yet, put the Kirby pay into play NOW,and we'll continue work on the rest of the contract, including industry standard pay.

Thanks for the clarification. Now here is mine... I didn't say the pilots weren't worth as much as the other majors. I didn't even say that an industry mid-point pay scale is beyond the realm of possibility with US management. I specifically said that it was a fantasy that USAPA would be able to achieve substantially higher pay rates than the Kirby proposal. US management doesn’t take anything USAPA says or does seriously because they know it is a weak, fractured, un-unified, dishonest, sadistic, masochistic, pernicious, barbarous . . . (insert other similar adjectives here) contract breaking, sorry excuse for a labor union that will never negotiate in good faith and could never amass enough support from its constituents to have any kind of effect on their running of the airline. Until USAPA changes course, shows union solidarity is possible, and accepts the NIC as its good-faith bargaining position management will do no more than they must to negotiate a CBA. They know everything USAPA has done up to this point is pure smoke and mirrors in an attempt to delay, delay, delay, delay the NIC at all costs. It not like USAPA’s intentions are a secret or anything.

 

[cubfan]

Thanks for the clarification. Now here is mine... I didn't say the pilots weren't worth as much as the other majors. I didn't even say that an industry mid-point pay scale is beyond the realm of possibility with US management. I specifically said that it was a fantasy that USAPA would be able to achieve substantially higher pay rates than the Kirby proposal. US management doesn’t take anything USAPA says or does seriously because they know it is a weak, fractured, un-unified, dishonest, sadistic, masochistic, pernicious, barbarous . . . (insert other similar adjectives here) contract breaking, sorry excuse for a labor union that will never negotiate in good faith and could never amass enough support from its constituents to have any kind of effect on their running of the airline. Until USAPA changes course, shows union solidarity is possible, and accepts the NIC as its good-faith bargaining position management will do no more than they must to negotiate a CBA. They know everything USAPA has done up to this point is pure smoke and mirrors in an attempt to delay, delay, delay, delay the NIC at all costs. It not like USAPA’s intentions are a secret or anything.

Thanks, the adjectives you use are rather strong, but I respect YOUR feelings. Like I said, the NIC will take care of it's self, then we will have to move on.

 

[hp_fa]

You have it wrong.

Thank you for your correction, but not so much for the cynical side comments.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Thank you for your correction, but not so much for the cynical side comments.

That's okay. No extra charge.

 

[cleardirect]

The power to ratify rest solely in the members in good standing. That's it. So, if the company needs the real power at the negotiating table, they need to rent out a venue like Radio City Music Hall to get the 3000+ pilots to attend.

5000 unless usapa has taken the west vote. I know you guys still think that you are separate but it was the east pilots that forced these two groups together.

 

[End of USAPA]

Thank you for your correction, but not so much for the cynical side comments.

I think you read to much into nyc's comments. He is a good guy, been here since like he was 22 or something. He is one of the best guys to fly with and has a lot of good info to talk about on these sites. One thing he is not is cynical. You need to put your dukes down. A lot of you westies are so hot and it shows.

j

 

[ROACLT]

I think you read to much into nyc's comments. He is a good guy, been here since like he was 22 or something. He is one of the best guys to fly with and has a lot of good info to talk about on these sites. One thing he is not is cynical. You need to put your dukes down. A lot of you westies are so hot and it shows.

j

Think of how proud they will be when they elect goat video boy.

 

[cleardirect]

Think of how proud they will be when they elect goat video boy.

Think of how much fun the BPR meetings will be.

 

[flyinawa]

Think of how proud they will be when they elect goat video boy.

I hope you will forgive the West for not electing him.