US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/17- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[john john]

Just found this little piece of legal jargon;

arbitration decision to a court system.



I wonder if XYZ Wireless knows that this disclaimer is worthless (in the eyes of Usapa), they should be on the lookout for Seham and Cleary...

Tell that to the bankruptcy judges’

 

[nycbusdriver]

... I spent alittle time checking out current airline pay. I thought since Kirby was offering parity + 3%, I assuming he means with the industry. ..

I'm not sure if this is a serious statement, or a bit of wishful thinking. The fact is Kirby's "parity plus 3%" referred to giving the east pilots parity with the west, then adding 3% to that figure. No where has Kirby, or anyone negotiating for the company, ever even hinted at industry plus 3%. In fact, they once attempted to disconnect themselves from the industry standards altogether by saying that LCC was no longer a "legacy hub-and-spoke" carrier, nor was it a pure "low cost carrier." They said it was in a category of its own, and would not entertain any talk of bringing wages in line with any other carrier.

When the laughter died down, I think the NAC told them to get real and quoted the company's own plethora of statements comparing themselves to other carriers in almost every category.

 

[Freebird]

Tell that to the bankruptcy judges’

Bankruptcy judges will abide by the Binding Arbitration. The Nic will be implemented even faster. Also, try to quote my post correctly.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Tell that to the bankruptcy judges’

Perhaps you don't understand what bankruptcy is or how it works. The judges understand their roles and responsibilities as they exercise broadly-defined fiat powers to bring about prudent remedies to untenable fiscal situations. Presumably they exercise these powers for the greater intended good (creditors, employees, the public at-large). Without bankruptcy courts companies would simply fold under the weight of insurmountable debt and endless litigation from their creditors.

It’s not germane to the NIC binding arbitration award because neither ALPA nor USAPA has been under bankruptcy protection. Of course even if USAPA goes into Chapter 11, there would be no justifiable reason for the NIC award to be terminated in bankruptcy court. A seniority list is cost-agnostic and has no bearing on the fiscal condition of the organization seeking protection from its creditors. So the NIC award will live on and be enforceable until a new CBA is ratified that adopts the list or the pilots are no longer represented by a union.

 

[hp_fa]

Don't get me going on bankruptcy, specifically reorganization, where corporate execs from any corporate entity can use those laws as a weapon against employees and creditors. As far as those type of tactics are concerned I opine that the system is broken and should be fixed. However, corporate political contributions will keep that from happening.

 

[SparrowHawk]

I lifted this little tidbit from the wire regarding CO and its pilots. US of course is mentioned. What I found interesting is this portion which I quoted.

"The pilot group is very upset with that contract," Pierce said. "We are either going to repair it or go down the path of labor unrest, (National Mediation Board) interaction and messages to the public that the wonderful world of Continental labor is not so wonderful anymore."

Balamce of article her

What I find interesting is CO is taking a proactive approach in attempting to get "out in front" on what appear to be some disturbing issues facing their pilot group.

For me as an observer I can't help but wonder if I'd be posting here today if Senior Management had taken a more proactive approach back in 2005 when frankly they had some positive leverage. Right now to this observer buying Labor Peace in '05 is looking like the blue light special compared to lost money and morale with the current situation which IMO could ultimately cause the demise of US Airways.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Don't get me going on bankruptcy, specifically reorganization, where corporate execs from any corporate entity can use those laws as a weapon against employees and creditors. As far as those type of tactics are concerned I opine that the system is broken and should be fixed. However, corporate political contributions will keep that from happening.

I’m all for eliminating chapter 11 bankruptcies altogether. Organizations should live up to their agreements or suffer the consequences by losing everything. Take the safety net away and corporations will make far wiser decisions when they enter into their contractual agreements. The bottom line is that if a business can’t pay its debts then it should go out of business or be sold to the highest bidder. Solvent competitors should be allowed to thrive in the open market on a level playing field. We wouldn’t have so much fragmentation in the airline industry if those who could not run a competitive business simply faded away. Bring it on I say.

 

[hp_fa]

Yup, and that goes for all industries.

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

Tell that to the bankruptcy judges’

Careful what you wish for. US Airways goes BK and LOA93 becomes permanent pay for all. Your boy Al has already as much as promised that he would force that fine east contract on everyone. That would usher in the Nic. Anything other than the Nic would generate huge training costs.

 

[cubfan]

I'm not sure if this is a serious statement, or a bit of wishful thinking. The fact is Kirby's "parity plus 3%" referred to giving the east pilots parity with the west, then adding 3% to that figure. No where has Kirby, or anyone negotiating for the company, ever even hinted at industry plus 3%. In fact, they once attempted to disconnect themselves from the industry standards altogether by saying that LCC was no longer a "legacy hub-and-spoke" carrier, nor was it a pure "low cost carrier." They said it was in a category of its own, and would not entertain any talk of bringing wages in line with any other carrier.

When the laughter died down, I think the NAC told them to get real and quoted the company's own plethora of statements comparing themselves to other carriers in almost every category.

NYC,
Its actually my stab at being sacastic. It's not at all wishful thinking. If we don't have the mind set that industry average is our starting point, then we're in big trouble. We ought to tell the company, their offer is not an offer at all. I think thats the mind set of the neg. comm. We have gotten our selves so wrapped up with the NIC, That I hope we don't lose sight of where we need to be headed. Alot think that the union is dragging it's feet in contract neg. to not have to impliment the award, I say BS, the company doesn't want a contract with their offers. Don't alow them to beat us down with time. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, lose sight of the big picture, the Nic will take care of its self, one way or another.

 

[CallawayGolf]

NYC,
Its actually my stab at being sacastic. It's not at all wishful thinking. If we don't have the mind set that industry average is our starting point, then we're in big trouble. We ought to tell the company, their offer is not an offer at all. I think thats the mind set of the neg. comm. We have gotten our selves so wrapped up with the NIC, That I hope we don't lose sight of where we need to be headed. Alot think that the union is dragging it's feet in contract neg. to not have to impliment the award, I say BS, the company doesn't want a contract with their offers. Don't alow them to beat us down with time. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, lose sight of the big picture, the Nic will take care of its self, one way or another.

I’m trying to decide which is the bigger fantasy – that USAPA will be able to avoid the NIC and move forward with DOH or that USAPA would be able to negotiate pay rates substantially higher than Kirby. Probably the NIC, but they are both really close in the entirely out-of-touch with reality world of Fantasy Island – “de plane boss, de plane!â€￾

 

[nycbusdriver]

I’m trying to decide which is the bigger fantasy – that USAPA will be able to avoid the NIC and move forward with DOH or that USAPA would be able to negotiate pay rates substantially higher than Kirby. Probably the NIC, but they are both really close in the entirely out-of-touch with reality world of Fantasy Island – “de plane boss, de plane!â€￾

It's not fantasy on our part.

It may be fantasy on your part if you think we are not willing to endure the status quo for however long it takes to prevail. If that never happens, then that is when you will get a pay raise. If you underestimate our resolve, then you are on Fantasy Island.

 

[luvn737s]

We (the east types) have told you guys you will never get us to vote for the Nicolau award. Everyone from Freund, Parker, Kirby, Prater, Wake and even Nicolau realize that we will never vote to wreck the remaining time we have left in this job. The east pilot group could care less what you think you deserve. We have every right to vote no on any agreement that includes Nicolau. No one will ever take that away from us.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You should be demanding that the pilots be allowed to vote and prove your resolve. Over and over again if necessary.

How can you brag about the vote you refuse to cast just so that you can retain control over the status quo? That is what will give Judge Wake the most heartburn. You can't deny the pilots the ability to cast their vote just because of the consequences of not having the majority you think you do.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I’m trying to decide which is the bigger fantasy – that USAPA will be able to avoid the NIC and move forward with DOH or that USAPA would be able to negotiate pay rates substantially higher than Kirby. Probably the NIC, but they are both really close in the entirely out-of-touch with reality world of Fantasy Island – “de plane boss, de plane!â€￾

I won't address the NIC. But if your starting point is the Kirby, which means you accept that as a possible end point or outcome, then you have relegated yourself to mediocrity. Kirby and Parker must love pilots with attitudes such as yours.

We are entitled to and we have earned an industry standard contract.

Stop selling yourself and the rest of us short - before the real battle has even begun.

KV

 

[cubfan]

I’m trying to decide which is the bigger fantasy – that USAPA will be able to avoid the NIC and move forward with DOH or that USAPA would be able to negotiate pay rates substantially higher than Kirby. Probably the NIC, but they are both really close in the entirely out-of-touch with reality world of Fantasy Island – “de plane boss, de plane!â€￾

Callaway,

out of touch with reality, I hope not. I've made my feelings known about the Nic, also my gut feeling about the ninth leans closer to HPfa. The ninth will probably stay with NIC, but also rule no damage until something else is tried. If your hoping for a big settlement through damages, then you also are living in fantasy island. Now back to more important stuff.

I surely hope you don't feel the Kirby is a realistic or fair offer. That is way below industry standard, you and I are better than the Kirby. Are you saying that your not worth as much as CO,DL, AA, SWA, JetBlue. If the neg.comm starts to think the Kirby is fair, they will get the big boot also. This is exactly playing into their hands. I say, if thats all they can offer now, so be it, I'll keep what I have. Or better yet, put the Kirby pay into play NOW,and we'll continue work on the rest of the contract, including industry standard pay.