US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/17- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[veritasaequitas]

I did not like the video. Do I think that he will win the election. NO! I would not vote for him for many reasons.

I will then have to take back my comment about it representing the mirror of the West's attitude.

 

[BoeingBoy]

veritasaequitas,

You never answered my questions...an oversight I'm sure...

So you tell me - which contract allows "almost unlimited" RJ's? The one with a limit of 163 or the one with a limit of 465? The one that allows a 3:2 increase in large RJ's or the one that allows a 1:1 increase in large RJ's if the mainline fleet grows above a given level? The one that allows up to 86 seats or the one that allows up to E190's?

Jim

 

[EastUS]

You never answered my questions...an oversight I'm sure...

Indeed. One I can only assume you also innocently made when avoiding response to the following:

"I realize that none of this concerns you personally, as you've achieved an honorable retirement, but; what most makes me go Hmmmmm here is why an astute individual like yourself, with your notions of "relative seniority" and vast store of industry knowledge and overall acumen...well...WHY didn't you jump ship for another airline long, long ago? Was there even the teeniest, tiny problem with abandoning your DOH achieved seniority?...or, even though you now champion the position of the AWA folks; were you just as utterly unable as anyone else to foresee the future? I mean seriously; why didn't you just take a postion at, say AWA long ago?....... "

 

[luvn737s]

"There is no joint operations until a collective bargaining agreement, the West fails to mention why this was part of the process. It was a fail safe back up that had an arbitration award gone awry in mind."

Could it be a much more pragmatic reason? Could it be that it would be impossible (almost) to administer two different contracts to a combined seniority list?

It's SAFE to say that USAPA has FAILED to exercise it's duties to represent ALL USAirways pilots, so fail-safe is an expression that could be used in some form.

 

[luvn737s]

It's funny that the east claims it was powerless to stop it's own people, but had more than enough power to hijack the entire integration process and poison the working relationship of two pilot groups for a generation or more.

I guess once they realized they had power, they still didn't (don't) know how to use it productively.

Maybe it's time that power was handed over to those who have proven an ability to use it responsibly.

 

[boeingplt]

Justification is a strange thing. Some people can rationalize anything in their own mind.

Sort of like you rationalizing the legitimacy of Goat man.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Sort of like you rationalizing the legitimacy of Goat man.

You guys sure are great at finding an excuse for anything and everything. There's an excuse under every rock, isn't there!

 

[nycbusdriver]

That's what I love about some of these claims....I guess "the remainder of their career" is very short for some...

Jim

Yes, very short indeed. After the Kagel award, I have been living with his decision "for the remainder of my career." Twenty plus years and still counting. Very short.

What exactly is your point, BB? Or do you not really have one, but are you experiencing a bit of "diarrhea" of the fingers.

I admit at the time I was disappointed with the Kagel award, but DOH is difficult to call unfair simply because it is not a subjective criteria and in the aftermath no one senior to me arrived on the scene after me. So I accepted it and moved on. No one on the south side ever wanted to get rid of ALPA over Kagel's decision. He followed ALPA policy to the letter and his award embraced decades of precedent in labor mergers.

 

[exB717Flyer]

1 You have said that the goat video is appropriate.

Well, I said it was well-deserved. Is it really so inappropriate to offend our attacker? Looks like crocodile tears to me.

2 What certain letter are you referring to?

The one from a lawyer advising Mr. Bradford to not make it look like USAPA was formed for the express purpose of getting around the Nicolau Award.

3 Airtran was Value Jet formally. They took over most of the flying that Midwest Airlines did, a former ALPA represented airline, that had its ALPA advised scope clause bulldozed by Republic Airlines.

I live in MKE so I don't need a history lesson. The blame for the demise of Midwest lies entirely at the feet of their former CEO Hoeksema. He refused the buyout offer from Airtran and he brought Republic in to take over their flying. ALPA grieved it and lost. I submit no other union would achieved anything more.

Since you're a relative newcomer to this board I'll tell you I've flown for two commuter airlines and I've been furloughed from TWA/AA. I've been a member of the IBT, APA, and ALPA at three different carriers. I can tell you the unhappiest pilots are the ones who expect their union to run their company and regulate the industry. It would be great if a union could fix all the ills of our careers but it's just not realistic.

Now, before you accuse me of some unholy love affair with ALPA I'll tell you I'm a member of a class-action DFR suit against them. They sold out the TWA pilots in 2002 to the APA. I had to consider very hard my decision to rejoin them. Ultimately, like when I decided to join the APA, instead of letting emotion drive me I let pragmatism prevail. In fact, I pride myself on making pragmatic decisions while many of my colleagues are still screaming bloody murder . Even though USAPA was formed for purely emotional reasons I have been a member since since August 2008. And if there's an election to rejoin ALPA I'll have to coldly calculate whether it's the right time to do so.

Sorry for being so long-winded but what I'm getting at is it's easy to point to the travails of ALPA-represented pilots and say, "why didn't ALPA prevent it?" The truth is in almost all cases no union would've prevented it thus a great scapegoat is defined. Just show me what USAPA can accomplish that ALPA can't.

4 Appeals court is not ignoring a federal judge, it is bringing it out in the open and is part of the legal process. I would love to ignore the jurys OJ verdict.

Huh? Please read my question more carefully. I'll repeat it without the part that confused you:
Does imposing your own seniority list that you feel is fair (but the other side doesn't) sound like a reasonable solution?

 

[HPearlyretiree]

You may not unerstand what pilots have to go through, this post of yours provides insight into your rational.

I don't care, you chose your career.
What part of Binding don't you get?

Oh, and its "rationale", I hope you "unerstand"

 

[BoeingBoy]

What exactly is your point, BB?

It's really a simple point if you'd bothered to read the part of your post that I was responding to:

DOH with very small conditions and restrictions which had very short time limits.

Either you believe that the remainder of a pilot's career after Kagel went into effect is a "very short time limit" on C&R's or you were wrong.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Sort of like you rationalizing the legitimacy of Goat man.

You might want to read my post before making up your own reality. I said that I did not like the video or think that it was right. I also said that I would not vote for him. Now how do you get that I am giving him any legitimacy?

If you can not understand simple concepts no wonder that you get things like final and binding wrong.

 

[Metroyet]

The pilot running for PHX domiclie rep recorded an offensive video describing USAPA. This video that is readily available on the internet, mirrors the attitude from the West side. This attitude has not made it easy for USAPA to function out West.

/he "Goat Video".

What's wrong with the Goat Video? It treats USAPA and it's cowardly founders with more respect than was given to the West by that group.

What's this? Another example of hypocritical double standards emanating from a USAPA Chearleader?!!

How shocking. How unpredictable. Who could have seen that coming?

I love the Goat Video.

 

[cubfan]

What's wrong with the Goat Video? It treats USAPA and it's cowardly founders with more respect than was given to the West by that group.

What's this? Another example of hypocritical double standards emanating from a USAPA Chearleader?!!

How shocking. How unpredictable. Who could have seen that coming?

I love the Goat Video.

Please......... :down: :down: :down:

 

[Pi brat]

What's wrong with the Goat Video? It treats USAPA and it's cowardly founders with more respect than was given to the West by that group.

What's this? Another example of hypocritical double standards emanating from a USAPA Chearleader?!!

How shocking. How unpredictable. Who could have seen that coming?

I love the Goat Video.

You have no problem with pilots in uniform followed by what happens at the end? If not, that says a lot. I thought this piece of trash had been removed.