US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/17- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[luvn737s]

That's right, you are foaming at the mouth over Nic purely out of principle.

I suppose, but the principle is representing your constituents. I have no alternative, but to pay; USAPA feels representation of the arbitrated list and negotiating in good faith without distractions like superfluous lawsuits, pension investigations (witchhunts/goosechase) and snapback greivances (more overpromising and underdelivering) is optional and to their discretion. I disagree.

Nic is a done deal - no one is foaming at the mouth. That time, if it ever occurred, has come and gone. Now is the time for USAPA to either represent everyone's interest within the law, or shut down and make room for an organization that will.

 

[nic4us]

What the west has to overcome in order to ever have the nic realized appears insurmountable to me,.

Insurmountable? The West is a mere 2 steps away from the east begging usapa to put any contract on the table that they can vote yes on.

Step 1. 9th upholds Wake

Step 2. an already guilty usapa, loses a damages trial that puts an assesment on all its members minus those belonging to the West pilot class. With no loa snapback and an indefinite subpar contract with a monthly assesment attached, you folks will vote yes on anything, including Kirby, which at that time will be like a 28% raise if it drops the assesment.

With the West voting no en masse, hope you got the numbers to get it passed. Because west migs will not vote yes on a 3% raise, when we are already getting it from your paycheck.

 

[N905TW]

Would that be an ALPA MC? No.. you don't say!

Nothing is EVER your fault is it? How convenient that the East is never responsible for anything that happens when the result is not as you planned.... its always someone else's fault.

 

[EastUS]

With the West voting no en masse, hope you got the numbers to get it passed.

Thanks for the honestly appreciated grins. No offence but that is, very possibly, the truly most amusing post I've ever seen on any of these threads. So...the west will be merrily feasting off east flesh/finances in the immediate future..ummm..and it will be the east that begs for the kirby..which the west will vote "no en masse" against? :blink:

Thanks again for the chuckles...and folks...you just can't make this sort of stuff up!

 

[EastUS]

Insurmountable? The West is a mere 2 steps away from the east begging usapa to put any contract on the table that they can vote yes on.

Step 1. 9th upholds Wake

Step 2. an already guilty usapa, loses a damages trial that puts an assesment on all its members minus those belonging to the West pilot class. With no loa snapback and an indefinite subpar contract with a monthly assesment attached, you folks will vote yes on anything, including Kirby, which at that time will be like a 28% raise if it drops the assesment.

With the West voting no en masse, hope you got the numbers to get it passed. Because west migs will not vote yes on a 3% raise, when we are already getting it from your paycheck.

Upon reflection...that truly sounds like a flawless plan. I'd say that it's all finally over in earnest! All that needs happen for your revenge fantasy to come true is for all issues to be decided entirely in favor of the west, and for the west to then nobly refuse to vote the nic into existence, just so as to spite the east....?..by way of an "en masse" vote against enabling the nic? :blink: Sigh...OK then. Whew! You've got us now!

 

[EastUS]

(Crzipilot @ Feb 24 2010, 08:25 AM)
Now remember who and what was hiring in 95-2000, and the comparison of contracts and work rules at that time....... Makes ya go Hmmmm...

Yes, pretty much everybody but US does make ya go Hmmmmm doesn't it.....

I realize that none of this concerns you personally, as you've achieved an honorable retirement, but; what most makes me go Hmmmmm here is why an astute individual like yourself, with your notions of "relative seniority" and vast store of industry knowledge and overall acumen...well...WHY didn't you jump ship for another airline long, long ago? Was there even the teeniest, tiny problem with abandoning your DOH achieved seniority?...or, even though you now champion the position of the AWA folks; were you just as utterly unable as anyone else to foresee the future? I mean seriously; why didn't you just take a postion at, say AWA long ago?.......

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Nothing is EVER your fault is it? How convenient that the East is never responsible for anything that happens when the result is not as you planned.... its always someone else's fault.

Nothing is ever their fault in entitlementville.

Such arrogance from the east.

What part of "binding" don't they get?

 

[cubfan]

Insurmountable? The West is a mere 2 steps away from the east begging usapa to put any contract on the table that they can vote yes on.

Step 1. 9th upholds Wake

Step 2. an already guilty usapa, loses a damages trial that puts an assesment on all its members minus those belonging to the West pilot class. With no loa snapback and an indefinite subpar contract with a monthly assesment attached, you folks will vote yes on anything, including Kirby, which at that time will be like a 28% raise if it drops the assesment.

With the West voting no en masse, hope you got the numbers to get it passed. Because west migs will not vote yes on a 3% raise, when we are already getting it from your paycheck.

In all reality, where do I begin? Your first point could happen, but I feel it would take 100% win in the ninth to make step 2 possible, anything less than that may wipe out damages. Now for the reality, you win step 1, damages applied, USAPA may have to pay you. I really don't think they would be at all sucessful in getting anyone on the east to pay a dime. Alot on are side are rather upset over NIC, and now your going to ask them to pay for it. Don't think so. How about those on the east that accepted Nic, and don't care for USAPA, think they'll pay, I don't. How about top 500, not effected by NIC, you think they'll pay, I don't. But lets say USAPA started talking about SEC 29 if you don't pay, they would be shown the door just like ALPA, assesment game over, unless like NIC you feel that the damages are contractual and follow the new bargaining unit, I don't. Just saying, don't hang your hat on payment by east pilots.

 

[Metroyet]

USAPA may have to pay you. I really don't think they would be at all sucessful in getting anyone on the east to pay a dime. Alot on are side are rather upset over NIC, and now your going to ask them to pay for it. Don't think so. How about those on the east that accepted Nic, and don't care for USAPA, think they'll pay, I don't. How about top 500, not effected by NIC, you think they'll pay, I don't. But lets say USAPA started talking about SEC 29 if you don't pay, they would be shown the door just like ALPA, assesment game over, unless like NIC you feel that the damages are contractual and follow the new bargaining unit, I don't. Just saying, don't hang your hat on payment by east pilots.

Such hypocrisy is the very foundation of USAPA and why it's destined to fail.

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

1) I've no intention of attempting to abbrogate any reasonable aspect of personal responsibility here, but....the truth is that our line guys had zero control over alpa's arcane processes, nor had we even the power to determine who was on the frikkin' MEC, much less what they chose to do/not do. The west line guys were also held hostage to all of this nonsense....and here we all are folks....sigh. Does ANYONE of the line pilots out west recall being asked to actually vote on any aspect of the proceedings that've left all in this sorry mess?.....???.....Anyone at all??? About the only thing we could actually do out east was get ridda' 'da bums/alpa asap...and did.

Eastus-

Who held who hostage?

I worked on the seniority list certification, why to the east demand restricted delivery on the letters after they had been sent out? Why did the east tell us oh, we just certified our list 2 years ago we don't have to do it again? Why your hero Eric Rowe would tell our reps over cocktails and cigars in the East MEC suite at the BOD meeting to trust him and he would take care of everyone.

Who held who hostage?? And please don't say ALPA. ALPA was nothing more than your own people representing you and knowingly manipulating east and west for their own gain.

 

[Flippin43]

1) I've no intention of attempting to abbrogate any reasonable aspect of personal responsibility here, but....the truth is that our line guys had zero control over alpa's arcane processes, nor had we even the power to determine who was on the frikkin' MEC, much less what they chose to do/not do. The west line guys were also held hostage to all of this nonsense....and here we all are folks....sigh. Does ANYONE of the line pilots out west recall being asked to actually vote on any aspect of the proceedings that've left all in this sorry mess?.....???.....Anyone at all??? About the only thing we could actually do out east was get ridda' 'da bums/alpa asap...and did.

2) Indeed sir, but, as trained counsel yourself; you're fully aware that some devices are often proven to be faulty in design/construction and are subject to remedy/removal. A viable and prudent testing of any tool/device's efficacy might reasonably be observation as to how well, (if at all), it actually "works" in the real world we live in. Our multi-year dispute here, is to me at least, primae facie evidence of the complete failure of alpa's fault-ridden and thoroughly defective "tool"... and the results have been most unpleasant, unproductive and have resulted in inury for all concerned.

"da bums" that you refer to of course are your own people, people YOU elected, people you allowed to remain in office even after becoming disatisfied with their results. WHY?

We get it, we get it......................you think you are an innocent bystander and have done nothing wrong.

Your right, you did nothing when your representatives that YOU put in place refused to accept that an Arbitrator was not going to grant want you wanted. Compromise was needed and you refused to respond.

YOU did this by allowing your REPS to do this......................Alpa was no where around, it was all you guys. Do you really expect us to believe that if Alpa National told the AAA MEC and Merger committee to "Wise up" and compromise, that it would have happened. It wouldn't have happend and you know it. So, it is LAUGHABLE that you now claim it wasnt us, it was Alpa. What even more laughable is that you now have many of the same "bums" as you put it, in usapa positions. INCREDIBLE!


Flip

 

[767jetz]

Such hypocrisy is the very foundation of USAPA and why it's destined to fail.

Someone else posted this quite a while back and likened it to arguing with the East. It's quite funny and worth the re-run...

click here

 

[nic4us]

In all reality, where do I begin? Your first point could happen, but I feel it would take 100% win in the ninth to make step 2 possible, anything less than that may wipe out damages. Now for the reality, you win step 1, damages applied, USAPA may have to pay you. I really don't think they would be at all sucessful in getting anyone on the east to pay a dime. Alot on are side are rather upset over NIC, and now your going to ask them to pay for it. Don't think so. How about those on the east that accepted Nic, and don't care for USAPA, think they'll pay, I don't. How about top 500, not effected by NIC, you think they'll pay, I don't. But lets say USAPA started talking about SEC 29 if you don't pay, they would be shown the door just like ALPA, assesment game over, unless like NIC you feel that the damages are contractual and follow the new bargaining unit, I don't. Just saying, don't hang your hat on payment by east pilots.

Just trying to point out that it is not necessarily this lengthy string of events that have to happen for us to move toward ratification of a contract that includes the Nic. Actually, my step 2 is somewhat unlikely. All it will take is the 9th upholding Wake, and the voice of reason will emerge from the east ranks. If usapa decides to persue a SCOTUS decision, it will not delay the damages trial, and we will be in Act 4 of usapas 5 Act play.

 

[nic4us]

Upon reflection...that truly sounds like a flawless plan. I'd say that it's all finally over in earnest! All that needs happen for your revenge fantasy to come true is for all issues to be decided entirely in favor of the west, and for the west to then nobly refuse to vote the nic into existence, just so as to spite the east....?..by way of an "en masse" vote against enabling the nic? :blink: Sigh...OK then. Whew! You've got us now!

Revenge fantasy? Watching the east is like watching a compulsive gambler, whom you have already had an intervention with, seeking to solve their finacial problems by borrowing money to take to the casino and win it all back.

I am not making any plans, just watching events unfold. If the 9th upholds Wake, it is pretty much over, unless the east wishes to harm themseves further. The string of insurmountale events are not going to materialize, but usapa will probably fabricate some other pie-in-the-sky, hold out hope, excuse for stealing from those they have the duty to represent, but the majority will see the futility in that course.

Bottom line, if the 9th upholds Wake, usapa has exactly 2 options. Either, become legitimate and pay restitution, or go away.

 

[luvn737s]

But lets say USAPA started talking about SEC 29 if you don't pay, they would be shown the door just like ALPA, assesment game over, unless like NIC you feel that the damages are contractual and follow the new bargaining unit, I don't. Just saying, don't hang your hat on payment by east pilots.

So you can change bargaining agents to get out of your obligations? I hope someone out there in the east files copyright protection on such a swell idea.

Suppose the subsequent agent is bound to carry out the section 29 proceedings? And USAPA would have no choice but to file sec 29's on non-payers. And the company would be compelled to escort those folks to the door.

If recent history is any predictor of events, I'd say payment is all but guaranteed.

For this the die seems to be cast. But perhaps the future can replace litigation with cooperation.