US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/17- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Scorched*Earth]

As much as the the west has a distaste for the east they want this merged asap, humm. Mine is a NO vote no matter what. Nic, nope, DOH nope, west #1 below east bottom east furloughed a super staple, nope. It's just NO period. The west has nothing to offer. Sorry, 120 low paying airplanes out of PHX, doesn't cut it. Mesa, and Republic have that to offer.

 

[CallawayGolf]

1) I can certainly agree with the first.

2) I must assume that you offer that in only the fullest jest?

Whether it takes three months, three years or ten years, by definition “resolvingâ€￾ the NIC issue, as was referenced by the previous poster, means having the combined seniority list solemnized by a ratified CBA. Since that can only happen when a majority of MIGS vote in favor of a TA that includes the NIC, that tells me that by that time most have moved beyond this issue in favor of new contract terms. So I’m not saying anything in jest. The final resolution of the NIC will be a newly ratified and combined CBA, whenever that may be.

Based on the numerous, emotion-charged posts you have made over the years since the award was announced, I trust you will take your unresolved opinions of the perceived NIC injustice to the grave. Whether your tortured emotions about the NIC are wiped away when you pass from this world or whether they remain with you throughout eternity is an entirely different conversation altogether. EastUS, I sincerely pray for the former and not the latter.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

Yes, pretty much everybody but US does make ya go Hmmmmm doesn't it.....

Jim

Actually US was taking airbus deliveries and hired over 1000 pilots between 99 and 01. Many of that group were expecting advancement due to rapid attrition since the airline had not hired earlier in the 90's. Unfortunately they had no crystal ball and the effects of 9-11 etc were not seen. That doesn't mean it was not a good choice at the time. By the way there are folks at AMR and UAL hired at the same time that are on the street as we speak.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Actually US was taking airbus deliveries and hired over 1000 pilots between 99 and 01.

Yes they were, but the "question" was for the 1995-2000 timeframe and for most of that US was not hiring. One can also look at what happened after 911 - at US everyone hired in the late 90's through 01 was furloughed while many of those hired at other airlines during that same period were not.

In other words, the other poster's attempt to slam HP was actually an indication of what a poor choice picking US has turned out to be for post-1990 hires.

Jim

 

[Irideover]

Yes, pretty much everybody but US does make ya go Hmmmmm doesn't it.....

Jim

Correction, Airways hired 348 between 98-2000....

 

[CallawayGolf]

Would it be fair to ask of you to expand on that a bit? Why is it you believe that "delaying the NIC is a victory for your side."?

Hint: I think it's fair to assume that we're nowadays light years past all the west's "Fair and Equitable" BS, but speak on your observation as you see fit sir.

I said that delaying the NIC is [considered] a victory for the east. I never said delaying the NIC is a victory for my side.

IMO everything else USAPA does is just a diversion in an attempt to delay the NIC. The LOA93 grievance is just a false-hope presented to the USAPA faithful. When is the last time you’ve heard Doug or Scott be so publically emphatic and absolutely confident about a contract issue and then have it turn out to go against them? If there was even the slightest chance that the grievance had merit, neither Doug nor Scott would be so confident about the outcome in a meeting with the pilots. USAPA is in no position to outmaneuver the company on this, but hey, I’ll give you that the probability that USAPA will win is not absolutely zero, so keep hope alive.

The same should be said of the appeal to the ninth. What is the ratio of successful appeals versus unsuccessful one? That is your staring probability of success to work from. From there you need to look at the rule of law to determine if USAPA’s case can overcome the odds. Judge Wake’s ruling was not without very detailed case law references which support the USAPA DFR violations and the issue of ripeness. You would have to go point-by-point through the order to refute his ruling. By contrast, Seham’s approach was much like yours – just crying about the perceived atrocities of the NIC and claiming that the issue was not for the courts to decide. He only offered spurious case law to make his case and did nothing to refute judge Wake’s case law citations. Unless Seham is even more incompetent than he appears, he isn’t trying to win the appeal (and of course the validity of the NIC award itself was never on trial). Seham is just trying to buy the east more time by squeezing every day of delay out of the system that he can. In the end he knows where this will ultimately lead, but he doesn’t seem to mind being personally enriched by the futile effort.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Correction, Airways hired 348 between 98-2000....

Actually more than that according to the seniority list I have, but that dates to before all the furloughs were given their last chance to accept recall so I expect that you're about right on the number of 98-00 new hires still on the list.

Anyway, see my response to a similiar correction immediately above your's. I'm just glad I'm not the only one that occasionally responds to a post when I read it only to discover that someone else has made the same point in the posts I haven't read yet.

Jim

 

[luvn737s]

Oh, and the statement, that many west guys won't commute east. Please, I see and have known pilots that commute from the west coast for an RJ job paying 20k a year. I've seen guys to international commutes for a non-sked freight job. Pilots will chase the money every time.....period.

What I said was that in an expansion scenario, pilots would not automatically chase across the country for an upgrade if a similar one would be had at home within a reasonable time frame. A contraction scenario is more dire and bodes ill for the entire airline, so upgrade concerns should take a back seat to the survival of the airline in general. So you may have anecdotal evidence to prove your point, it's probably not enough to support the kind of fear mongering that it USAPA's lifeblood.

 

[cleardirect]

I just looked at the “proposedâ€￾ AAA seniority list. In 1999 AAA hired 953. In 2000 AAA hired 78.

At the time of the merger those with 6 year DOH had less than 3 years on the property. Those hired in May 1999 had 2.6 years of longevity. Even more interesting were those hired in 1989-1990. 15.4 years DOH but only 5.2 years on the property. Now those same 89-90 hires want to be senior to most of the west captains.

Spent more time on the street than flying airplanes and now want something that you never expected. Is this what you all talk about when you talk about all of that aviation experience?

BTW we hear a whole lot of complaining about “losing 17 years of seniority “ How unfair that was Blah,blah,blah. Using your own longevity list the east put 1998 hires next to 2000 hires an 11 years “lossâ€￾ but no one had a problem with that. But 17 years is wholly unacceptable and unfair and insane by a senile old man.

Amazing how your perception changes. Maybe it is that the east is willing to throw segments under the bus as long as it is not your segment that is being hurt.

Read the NAC latest update. For the last 20 years US Airways was shrinking by half. That was before Awa came along, that was all of your east coast profitable bases all on your own with all of your own management. Just because the east hired a bunch of people does not mean that you had career expectations. They would have been better off being called temp workers.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

I just looked at the “proposedâ€￾ AAA seniority list. In 1999 AAA hired 953. In 2000 AAA hired 78.

At the time of the merger those with 6 year DOH had less than 3 years on the property. Those hired in May 1999 had 2.6 years of longevity. Even more interesting were those hired in 1989-1990. 15.4 years DOH but only 5.2 years on the property. Now those same 89-90 hires want to be senior to most of the west captains.

Spent more time on the street than flying airplanes and now want something that you never expected. Is this what you all talk about when you talk about all of that aviation experience?

BTW we hear a whole lot of complaining about “losing 17 years of seniority “ How unfair that was Blah,blah,blah. Using your own longevity list the east put 1998 hires next to 2000 hires an 11 years “lossâ€￾ but no one had a problem with that. But 17 years is wholly unacceptable and unfair and insane by a senile old man.

If Nic had placed the bottom of the list in Length of Service order we would not be where we are today. Also putting a 1998 hire next to 2000 hire only is a 2 year loss if the 2000 hire is in front of the 1998 hire.

 

[aquagreen73s]

And look no further than the East MC to blame for that. Nicolau told you guys several times to come off of DOH, and you didn't. You can't expect everyone else to do your lifting for you. What's more, you can't just decide to ignore things like binding arbitrations just because the result didn't meet your unreasonable expectations. The arbitration process, like anything else, is a tool and as such it must be used properly. The tool was designed with the expectation that parties would hire professionals to litigate with an eye towards what could be reasonably attained for their side. Misuse the tool and guess what....you can be in for one big surprise. After five years of this nonsense, you guys sound more like the pissed off plaintiff who is suing Black and Decker for injuries sustained from using, say a drill to mix water in a bathtub. Ummm....not the intended use fellas. If we had to design every tool with safeguards to insure the lowest common denominator user can never hurt themselves, then we'd be sitting around a campfire with none of the modern conveniences.

 

[EastUS]

So we have returned to this old rumor. I have asked and no one has answered.
How many east pilots “will never see the left seatâ€￾?


How about some facts instead of emotion?

Wild rhetoric only proves that you have no facts just emotion. Standing on “principleâ€￾ because you “believeâ€￾ that you are right even though you are wrong on your facts is simple crazy. You can keep voting no until you retire or die but at least know what you are voting against. There are people in the world that “know they are rightâ€￾ then step on a bus and blow up innocent people. The rest of the world has a different opinion of them.

1) You pretend to a thorough knowledge of the nic and all it's glory. How many east pilots would indeed never again see the left seat?...or even obtain an initial upgrade at US? Why don't you answer your own question? Surely; you must know the effects that would occur out east from the nic?....or is it the sad case that you don't even begin to know the supposed "facts" you drone on about? :blink:

2) This latest of yours is almost just too "cute" for words to do proper justice. Folks..you really just can't make this stuff up "wild rhetoric"..."There are people in the world that "know they are right" and then step on a bus and blow up innocent people." Hmmm...methinks we've seen the "wild rhetoric" in abundance all right.

 

[EastUS]

I trust you will take your unresolved opinions of the perceived NIC injustice to the grave.

Whether your tortured emotions about the NIC are wiped away when you pass from this world or whether they remain with you throughout eternity is an entirely different conversation altogether. EastUS, I sincerely pray for the former and not the latter.

1) You could only wish that said opinions are "unresolved".

2) As for your deep spiritual concern for my "tortured emotions about the NIC" being "wiped away when you pass from this world or whether they remain with you through eternity". :blink: ....??? Ummmm....WTF? I could only wish that the deepest transgressions against The Allmighty that are perhaps standing on my soul involved the heresy of denying the Chosen People of the West their desired plunder. I thought you west folks were set against emotionally charged (much less just clinically insane) "wild rhetoric" and were all about "the facts"??? While I certainly appreciate your fervent prayers that my clearly tortured and troubled DOH soul will one day come to see the presumed "Light of Nic"...errr...ummm...really....don't fret overmuch on that score. :blink:

 

[cleardirect]

If Nic had placed the bottom of the list in Length of Service order we would not be where we are today. Also putting a 1998 hire next to 2000 hire only is a 2 year loss if the 2000 hire is in front of the 1998 hire.

My mistake 1989

1989 east 2000 west 11 years. But that was OK with you.

 

[EastUS]

"Would it be fair to ask of you to expand on that a bit? Why is it you believe that "delaying the NIC is a victory for your side."?

I said that delaying the NIC is [considered] a victory for the east. I never said delaying the NIC is a victory for my side.

Sorry. The absence of the word "considered" in your original post threw me off. I'd thought some slight meeting of the minds was momentarily taking place. It seemed, for just a brief moment, that you understood that every day that passes without the nic insanity IS a victory for the east. No surprise though, that it is also "considered" as such.

In any case: It's fair to say that our individual opinions are without any real consequence. What the west has to overcome in order to ever have the nic realized appears insurmountable to me, so I suppose there's little reason for discussion other than mutual amusment anyway. You first need to completely triumph in the 9th. You then must hope for zero improvement to east pay through the complete loss of the LOA issues. Next; you must magically convince the company to offer up an actually respectable contract that would sufficently impress those who'd stand to forfeit the east attrition and any hope for advancement to vote for it. Given that the "management team" is obviously lusting after yet another corporate transaction; you need to somehow convince east pilots that they'd be "better off" with being on an established nic list than as a potentially seperate entity for purposes of integration with yet another group. Lastly; you'd need to find some way of convincing enough aged recalcitrants like myself to go along with something they're diametrically opposed to by way of principles, and/or concerns for their fellows' well being.....Rotsa' Ruck.