US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/17- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Metroyet]

But that was OK with you.

It's more than OK. It's the Law.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

My mistake 1989

1989 east 2000 west 11 years. But that was OK with you.

Just trying to understand, which proposed list has 1989 east beside 2000 west?

 

[EastUS]

Just because the east hired a bunch of people does not mean that you had career expectations. They would have been better off being called temp workers.

I'd gently suggest that "does not mean that you had career expectations" is a salute to any of the actually rational among us. Substitute in "west" for "east" there.....and kindly do expound further on how the "expansion" out west and your own "career expectations" have played out for you all in harsh reality's light? What's happened to all that vaunted west "expansion" that you presumably signed on for?....Given that we've recently come to know that the entire AWA bunch apparently picked that place to work over all other airlines, who would certainly have otherwise, universally welcomed all of you? Was your collective Crystal Ball on MEL when you applied?....or was it just the choice of an inept soothsayer?...or gypsy fortune teller? How could it even be at all possible that your "expectations" proved out to be completely incorrect? Most certainly, you must have foreseen the future merger with US?.....No?....How about at least the tragedy of 9-11?...No again?...Sigh...well...at least tell me you had full prior knowledge of the spike in fuel prices? No yet again?....Sigh....Aww c'mon....it must certainly be the case that those unfortunates recently furloughed all knew about how things would go....????

"Career expectations" and "Relative Seniority" are terms sutable only for very imaginative young children or complete fools and hopeless village idiots. The entire premise of career expectations is one that can only be embraced by people who actually imagine themselves as honestly capable of guessing next week's winning lotto numbers.....and is NO rational basis for ANY notions as to "seniority"......What's that you say?...Something about "A Snapshot in Time"??? OK. As we all know, per Professor Einstein's incredible mind, that time itself is "relative" and only the speed of light's (so far) been seen to be the least bit constant, so, since even time it's self is "relative"; how about we just use this very moment for "a snapshot"?...No?...Well. why not?...It's all just "relative"....umm...isn't it? :blink: Heck!...This could be fun! What say we do another evaluation of "relative seniority" during the next winter solstice?..or perhaps just from where everyone's seated/bid the next time the moon's in capricorn?..or next wednesday/whatever?

 

[EastUS]

And look no further than the East MC to blame for that. Nicolau told you guys several times to come off of DOH, and you didn't.

If we had to design every tool with safeguards to insure the lowest common denominator user can never hurt themselves, then we'd be sitting around a campfire with none of the modern conveniences.

1) I've no intention of attempting to abbrogate any reasonable aspect of personal responsibility here, but....the truth is that our line guys had zero control over alpa's arcane processes, nor had we even the power to determine who was on the frikkin' MEC, much less what they chose to do/not do. The west line guys were also held hostage to all of this nonsense....and here we all are folks....sigh. Does ANYONE of the line pilots out west recall being asked to actually vote on any aspect of the proceedings that've left all in this sorry mess?.....???.....Anyone at all??? About the only thing we could actually do out east was get ridda' 'da bums/alpa asap...and did.

2) Indeed sir, but, as trained counsel yourself; you're fully aware that some devices are often proven to be faulty in design/construction and are subject to remedy/removal. A viable and prudent testing of any tool/device's efficacy might reasonably be observation as to how well, (if at all), it actually "works" in the real world we live in. Our multi-year dispute here, is to me at least, primae facie evidence of the complete failure of alpa's fault-ridden and thoroughly defective "tool"... and the results have been most unpleasant, unproductive and have resulted in inury for all concerned.

 

[cleardirect]

It's more than OK. It's the Law.

WHAT??????

What law are you talking about?

 

[cleardirect]

Just trying to understand, which proposed list has 1989 east beside 2000 west?

That would be the AAA proposed seniority list LOS from the arbitration.

Do you guys not even know what you were asking for?

One more thing. Check out the DOB for the east pilots and the west pilots. Care to explain the whines about how the west pilots are so much younger than the east?

U 4945 3746 40515 BEATOVICH W FUR 06/10/59 11/27/89 15.5 5.2
U 4946 3747 75751 BRUCCOLIRI M FUR 01/30/60 11/27/89 15.5 5.2
U 4947 3748 75752 SINCLAIR D FUR 06/11/62 11/27/89 15.5 5.2
U 4948 3749 75753 SCHULTE K FUR 08/13/62 11/27/89 15.5 5.2
U 4949 3750 75754 NEFF J FUR 03/19/63 11/27/89 15.5 5.2
U 4950 3751 40523 LARGMANN L FUR 02/15/66 11/27/89 15.5 5.2
A 4951 1322 P2551 OLTMAN R FO A320 PHX 06/26/59 03/13/00 5.2 5.2
A 4952 1323 P2552 FREDRICKSON J FO A320 PHX 04/25/61 03/13/00 5.2 5.2
A 4953 1324 P2553 HARMAN D FO A320 PHX 02/03/62 03/13/00 5.2 5.2
A 4954 1325 P2554 KLASSEN B FO A320 PHX 07/02/62 03/13/00 5.2 5.2


Can you guys stop crying about facts that are not true. This "proposal" was not used by Nicolau. We have an award it is done and accepted by the west, it is accepted by the compnay, it is accepted by the court. How much longer are you east guys going to deny reality?

 

[CallawayGolf]

"Would it be fair to ask of you to expand on that a bit? Why is it you believe that "delaying the NIC is a victory for your side."?



Sorry. The absence of the word "considered" in your original post threw me off. I'd thought some slight meeting of the minds was momentarily taking place. It seemed, for just a brief moment, that you understood that every day that passes without the nic insanity IS a victory for the east. No surprise though, that it is also "considered" as such.

In any case: It's fair to say that our individual opinions are without any real consequence. What the west has to overcome in order to ever have the nic realized appears insurmountable to me, so I suppose there's little reason for discussion other than mutual amusment anyway. You first need to completely triumph in the 9th. You then must hope for zero improvement to east pay through the complete loss of the LOA issues. Next; you must magically convince the company to offer up an actually respectable contract that would sufficently impress those who'd stand to forfeit the east attrition and any hope for advancement to vote for it. Given that the "management team" is obviously lusting after yet another corporate transaction; you need to somehow convince east pilots that they'd be "better off" with being on an established nic list than as a potentially seperate entity for purposes of integration with yet another group. Lastly; you'd need to find some way of convincing enough aged recalcitrants like myself to go along with something they're diametrically opposed to by way of principles, and/or concerns for their fellows' well being.....Rotsa' Ruck.

I get it. A delay IS a win as you define it. LOA93 forever IS a win if the alternative is the NIC as you define it. I get it that you can vote "No" to sustain the current CBA for as long as you are willing to endure the pain of that decision.

Of course I think this is narcissism to the extreme but I also don't suspect there is a soul on earth that would convince you that you are rejecting any chance you have to improve your wages or that the NIC is nowhere near as detrimental to the east as they make it out to be.

 

[EastUS]

I get it. A delay IS a win as you define it. LOA93 forever IS a win if the alternative is the NIC as you define it. I get it that you can vote "No" to sustain the current CBA for as long as you are willing to endure the pain of that decision.

Of course I think this is narcissism to the extreme but I also don't suspect there is a soul on earth that would convince you that you are rejecting any chance you have to improve your wages or that the NIC is nowhere near as detrimental to the east as they make it out to be.

Do I have this right? = By your posted estimation; "I get it that you can vote "No" to sustain the current CBA for as long as" I'm "willing to endure the pain of that decision"...but simultaneously, am somehow guilty of "narcissim to the extreme"? :blink: That'd represent a rather unusually masochistic sort of "narcicissm"..wouldn't you say?

"I also don't suspect there is a soul on earth that would convince you that you are rejecting any chance you have to improve your wages or that the NIC is nowhere near as detrimental to the east as they make it out to be." You're likely correct in that, especially insomuch as no one out west has offered up even the slightest actually rational (or even at all reasonable) set of assumptions from which to conclude that "the NIC is nowhere near as detrimental to the the east as they make it out to be." Quite frankly; your side's recently still posting that some slight improvements in the kirby would make up for the obliteration of east attrition and hard earned seniority....which is, imo, completely ludicrous.

 

[Metroyet]

WHAT??????

What law are you talking about?

The Permanent Injunction issued by Wake is the ONLY lawful direction USAPA can take the seniority issue. I was replying to the snide, self pitying remark left by another poster.

 

[boeingplt]

What I said was that in an expansion scenario, pilots would not automatically chase across the country for an upgrade if a similar one would be had at home within a reasonable time frame. A contraction scenario is more dire and bodes ill for the entire airline, so upgrade concerns should take a back seat to the survival of the airline in general. So you may have anecdotal evidence to prove your point, it's probably not enough to support the kind of fear mongering that it USAPA's lifeblood.

That's right, you are foaming at the mouth over Nic purely out of principle.

 

[boeingplt]

I just looked at the “proposedâ€￾ AAA seniority list. In 1999 AAA hired 953. In 2000 AAA hired 78.

At the time of the merger those with 6 year DOH had less than 3 years on the property. Those hired in May 1999 had 2.6 years of longevity. Even more interesting were those hired in 1989-1990. 15.4 years DOH but only 5.2 years on the property. Now those same 89-90 hires want to be senior to most of the west captains.

Spent more time on the street than flying airplanes and now want something that you never expected. Is this what you all talk about when you talk about all of that aviation experience?

BTW we hear a whole lot of complaining about “losing 17 years of seniority “ How unfair that was Blah,blah,blah. Using your own longevity list the east put 1998 hires next to 2000 hires an 11 years “lossâ€￾ but no one had a problem with that. But 17 years is wholly unacceptable and unfair and insane by a senile old man.

Amazing how your perception changes. Maybe it is that the east is willing to throw segments under the bus as long as it is not your segment that is being hurt.

Read the NAC latest update. For the last 20 years US Airways was shrinking by half. That was before Awa came along, that was all of your east coast profitable bases all on your own with all of your own management. Just because the east hired a bunch of people does not mean that you had career expectations. They would have been better off being called temp workers.

There were also 1989 hires who had 13+ years of longevity who got zero credit from Nic

 

[aquagreen73s]

There were also 1989 hires who had 13+ years of longevity who got zero credit from Nic

Your MC didn't ask for it. After three warnings from Nicolau that you weren't going to get DOH and to come back with something different, your MC didn't. Guess what? You didn't get DOH. News flash: a litigant is supposed to proffer their own arguments. It's not the responsiblity of anyone but you to make your arguments. Looking back on the way the East handled the arbitration, Nicolau should've just taken the last West proposal and made that the final result. What you guys did was tantamount to a forfeiture. Why Nicolau took the last West proposal and then split the difference with the East is beyond me. You shouldn't have even gotten what you did. Not trying to flame bait anyone, but it should be pretty obvious that a party who litigates the way your MC did usually winds up getting absolutely nothing. Nic gave you a lot more than other arbitrators would have.

 

[Phoenix]

Your MC didn't ask for it...

Would that be an ALPA MC? No.. you don't say!

 

[aquagreen73s]

That would be three East pilots, utilizing the services of the legal counsel picked by East pilots, to litigate on behalf of East pilots in the merger with America West.

 

[cleardirect]

Would that be an ALPA MC? No.. you don't say!

Who put the MC in place? Did ALPA national appoint the MC members? Did ALPA national pick the arbitrator? Did ALPA national hire Katz as the merger lawyer?

Was it the east pilots that elected the LEC, that elected the MEC that appointed the MC? So in the end it was the east pilots that demanded the position of
DOH no one else to blame.