US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/17- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[BoeingBoy]

How in heck did the pilots agree to so much outsourcing?

Good question and I don't have the answer - I voted no but was outvoted. I can only tell you that most of those I flew with - all f/o's - gave variations on the "I'm too old to start over" theme.

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

Delay, as a tactic, has historically been quite effective. The Russians used it to great effect to repel two invaders - one Napoleonic and the other Nazi - by delaying until the Russian winter accomplished what the Russian - or Soviet - Army could not, at least in the early rounds.

And speaking of rounds, Mohammed Ali employed his own version of delay - the rope-a-dope - with great success on some memorable occassions.

Corporations love using the delay tactic to demoralize and then defeat their opponenets. There are many more examples.

Still, if you are implying that delay is our only motivation, after all that we have set in motion over the last three plus years - then your view is overly simplistic and incomplete; and - you are employing your own version of propaganda.

USAPA’s principal objective is to delay the NIC, not defeat it. Oh, I’m sure on days when optimism is at a premium when Cleary and others dream of a radical court ruling that the NIC arbitration isn’t binding and USAPA is free to negotiate a DOH seniority list. And when those fantasies are at their fullest, I’m sure they also have confidence that they can convince management to accept a DOH seniority list even though the company has already accepted the NIC. This may be unbridled optimism, but it’s not reality.

I suspect on more lucid days USAPA leadership lives with their feet more closely connected to the earth and they just plod on with one smoke-and-mirrors tactic after another to keep the east MIGS from starting an uprising; so they continue to pursue any course or action, however unethical, that may lead to an extended delay of the NIC. No other issue, no other objective takes precedence over delaying the NIC at USAPA. For without this as their singular cause, they simply have little reason to exist as a CBA.

Sure USAPA takes on other union matters like any other CBA would. If those matters are connected to a CBA (pay, work rules, grievances), then USAPA’s actions will take a subordinate role to defeating the NIC. Obviously USAPA can only push so hard on these minor skirmishes because negotiating a CBA is their principle role as the bargaining agent and they cannot allow a minor issue to push them into a situation where they have to negotiate in good faith on a new CBA. Management knows this and plays along with USAPA and yielding very little because they know USAPA is a paper tiger with no unity to call upon when things get tough.

So I’m sure you’re right – USAPA and east pilots have other motivations. They just don’t rise to the level of defeating the NIC and thus will have very little positive impact for the pilots. I wouldn’t be able to put a cost to east pilots on their cause celeb of delaying the NIC, but it seems safe to say that it must be in the tens of thousands of dollars in lost pay over the past three years (with many more to come if you get your continued delay) and the wholesale transfer of personal wealth from each pilot to Lee Seham. To me this not only lacks honor and integrity, but it also lacks any degree of sound judgment or perspicacity.

 

[LSS]

How in heck did the pilots agree to so much outsourcing? Wouldn't have been better to keep such flying in house - albeit at a different pay rate - than giving all that flying to the Air Wisconsins, Mesas, and Republics? Just askin'

On the East we had ALPA and our traitorous MEC to thank for the outsourcing of all that flying... Terminate our pension, so AAA could buy "more RJ's than God can count!" …

 

[Piedmont1984]

The subject of the Nic hardly comes up with the F/O's I fly with anymore. It is in the hands of the court, the trigger has been pulled and events will follow a trajectory which neither you nor I have any control over.

As far as USAPA is concerned, despite setbacks and uncertainty, the in-house model for a CBA representing a pilot group of our size and influence in the industry is still better than a national union controlled in large measure by DAL and UAL.

In the end, the MIGS will decide which direction this union will take - as it should be. Delay on the part of the west in becoming MIGS has its own cost.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The subject of the Nic hardly comes up with the F/O's I fly with anymore. It is in the hands of the court, the trigger has been pulled and events will follow a trajectory which neither you nor I have any control over.

As far as USAPA is concerned, despite setbacks and uncertainty, the in-house model for a CBA representing a pilot group of our size and influence in the industry is still better than a national union controlled in large measure by DAL and UAL.

In the end, the MIGS will decide which direction this union will take - as it should be. Delay on the part of the west in becoming MIGS has its own cost.

Better in terms of what exactly?

Costs? No. There are many bills still yet to come​

Experience and expertise? No. USAPA is run by amateurs (see my previous post on how USAPA almost got Sully & Skiles in big trouble for missing the allotted time for their post-incident drug & alcohol testing because they moved them without telling anyone at the company where they were).​

Better pay? No pilots are still earning what they were at the time of the merger five years ago and will continue to make that level of pay for the rest of their careers if USAPA succeeds in delaying the NIC.
What other tangible benefits has USAPA delivered on besides delaying the NIC?​

As I said, you could have accomplished the same exact results under ALPA by simply voting no on every TA. IMO, all pilots would be far better served by decertifying USAPA and going at-will with the company.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Better in terms of what exactly?

Experience and expertise? No. USAPA is run by amateurs (see my previous post on how USAPA almost got Sully & Skiles in big trouble for missing the allotted time for their post-incident drug & alcohol testing because they moved them without telling anyone at the company where they were).​

Better pay? No pilots are still earning what they were at the time of the merger five years ago and will continue to make that level of pay for the rest of their careers if USAPA succeeds in delaying the NIC.
What other tangible benefits has USAPA delivered on besides delaying the NIC?​

USAPA has many ex-ALPA types within its structure, top to bottom. Also, I would prefer amateurs who have my best interests at heart to professionals who don't.

On some of the most important issues affecting my career - pay, pension and merger policy - what tangible benefits did ALPA deliver?

The NIC is holding up a number of things on a number of fronts. Better to ask what tangible benefits can be accrued once the NIC is resolved.

 

[CallawayGolf]

USAPA has many ex-ALPA types within its structure, top to bottom. Also, I would prefer amateurs who have my best interests at heart to professionals who don't.

On some of the most important issues affecting my career - pay, pension and merger policy - what tangible benefits did ALPA deliver?

The NIC is holding up a number of things on a number of fronts. Better to ask what tangible benefits can be accrued once the NIC is resolved.

I trust that you believe USAPA has your best interests at heart. Do you believe that they also have the best interests of the west pilots at heart (as is their impartial, statutory duty)?

You got me there. I can’t think of anything ALPA was good for except to say that they fully understood their duty to fairly and impartially represent all pilots. I don't think they would have sucked money out of pilot’s pockets just to chase some fool’s errand of trying to avoid binding arbitration.

Resolving the NIC means the bulk of the strife between the two pilot groups is in the past and a majority of pilots have voted in favor of the new pay rates and work rules. USAPA can only get there if they begin to negotiate in good faith with management. Given their performance so far, I don’t believe this a very likely possibility. Far more likely is that USAPA will delay good faith negotiations until it becomes untenable to do otherwise – all at an excessively high cost to their constituents.

 

[john john]

If you would like to use the dispatchers or flight attendents form of integration

You forgot the airport agents the reservation agents the ramp agents the operation agents the airfreight agents the mechanics the stock clerks the cleaners the engineers. Did I leave anybody out

 

[aquagreen73s]

You forgot the airport agents the reservation agents the ramp agents the operation agents the airfreight agents the mechanics the stock clerks the cleaners the engineers. Did I leave anybody out

. . . but obviously not the pilots - not here, not at DAL-NWA, not at SWA (Morris and potentially FRNT), not at AMR (TWA)...nowhere in the pilot ranks.

What I find totally amazing is that so many on the East conveniently forget that DOH is not the way pilots have integrated anywhere over the last two decades. Constructing one's own version reality eventually has a cost, and several more years under LOA 93 plus taking the Nic is going to be that cost in this case.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Also, I would prefer amateurs who have my best interests at heart to professionals who don't.

Which is more important between "interests" and results? As has been pointed out the East would've enjoyed the same delay in implementing the Nicolau list if ALPA was still around. So aside from the visceral enjoyment of your dues money going into a different account what has USAPA actually delivered to the USAirways pilots?

Pay? Nope.

Pension? Nope. No union can get that.

Merger policy? Ha!! TWA had a merger policy when they were bought by AA. Poof! It was gone during bankruptcy and the APA got to do to the TWA pilots exactly what USAPA tried to do to the AWA pilots. Oh, and don't forget the Bond-McKaskill law. It supersedes USAPA's myopic merger policy.

 

[Flippin43]

USAPA has many ex-ALPA types within its structure, top to bottom. Also, I would prefer amateurs who have my best interests at heart to professionals who don't.

On some of the most important issues affecting my career - pay, pension and merger policy - what tangible benefits did ALPA deliver?

The NIC is holding up a number of things on a number of fronts. Better to ask what tangible benefits can be accrued once the NIC is resolved.

KV,

How can you make the "RED" statement followed by the "BLUE" in the same post.
Certainly you see that with the same players the quality of the game will remain the same. Dont get me wrong I'm not that upset that Alpa is gone. But how can you expect things to change when the same people are calling the shots. The main difference I see is that there is no longer a National body that would have negotiated a contract and put it out for a vote. You know, the one usapas, Jr f/o "leaders" are petrified of having a vote on.

There are more guys out west that don't mind usapa per say (no more Alpa), than you would expect. Its the dishonorable people running it and doing the dishonorable things that they do, that most find absolutley sickening.

By pilots for pilots from the ground up..........right. In case the you haven't noticed the "Alpa trough" many east guys refer to has a new name above it and many of the same partaking.


You guys say you truly want a better union than Alpa but look at what you are allowing to happen. Just more of the same. Its why we have a hard time believing it when we are told "usapa really wasn't brought here because of the Nic"


Flip

 

[aquagreen73s]

Oh, and don't forget the Bond-McKaskill law. It supersedes USAPA's myopic merger policy.

Which brings us to the elephant in the room that nobody on the East dare acknowledge: USAPA's DOH was intended for nothing other than breaching the arbitrated agreement with the West. Once that was done, then time and events would have soon cured the DOH heist in quikcrete, and whatever the future held would have been left to chance. Trouble is, the West fought back and now the absolute best case scenario for the East is LOA 93 until retirement, and even then that's assuming Judge Wake checks out, which is something I highly doubt will happen.

 

[EastUS]

Propaganda, in this sense, is the promotion of falsehoods or the intent to mislead a group of uninformed people about the truth.

What the non-USAPA supporters post here is generally factual or the outlining a highly probable outcome based on the rule of law. So this is not propaganda –.........

"outlining a highly probable outcome.." Purely in your opinion I'll note, since none can possibly know how the LOA issue will resolve, just for starters, nor the 9th circuit/etc. As for the established (and apparently, desperately needed little life preserver to cling to) west fantasy of "Put out a contract and it will pass", well...what more can really be said on that that hasn't been repeated endlessly? I'll go to my grave without EVER voting in anything that would implement the nic insanity. My personal sentiments are hardly unique out east on that. I'd respectfully submit that I'm in a "slightly" better position to ascertain the true feelings out east than are any of you out west. The fact that the company has less than zero interest in ever negotiating in any semblance of good faith, much less on anything approaching an expedited schedule, makes this moot at present anyway. But yet:"...this is not propoganda.." from the west ??? Umm..sure, if you say so. I think we're done here.

Carry on. Swing away, and don't hook it!.

 

[EastUS]

I truly appreciate your honesty here and I understand that delaying the NIC is a victory for your side.

Would it be fair to ask of you to expand on that a bit? Why is it you believe that "delaying the NIC is a victory for your side."?

Hint: I think it's fair to assume that we're nowadays light years past all the west's "Fair and Equitable" BS, but speak on your observation as you see fit sir.

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

The subject of the Nic hardly comes up with the F/O's I fly with anymore. It is in the hands of the court, the trigger has been pulled and events will follow a trajectory which neither you nor I have any control over.

As far as USAPA is concerned, despite setbacks and uncertainty, the in-house model for a CBA representing a pilot group of our size and influence in the industry is still better than a national union controlled in large measure by DAL and UAL.

In the end, the MIGS will decide which direction this union will take - as it should be. Delay on the part of the west in becoming MIGS has its own cost.

What subject does come up?

The posters here who claim to members seemto mention nothing but the Nic. Do they discuss their lagging earnings or the outstand work rules they have?

So far usapa has provided higher dues and much less in terms of any benefits.

Not that I'm and ALPA fan but...

Spirit contract talks ended Thursday, Feb. 18, with no agreement. Spirit pilots picket Fort Lauderdale airport and company headquarters to demonstrate readiness to call a lawful strike. www.alpa.org

ALPA pilots join fellow Star Alliance pilots from Lufthansa, Swiss Airlines, and Austrian Airlines to picket the Lufthansa Aviation Center in Frankfurt, Germany, calling for an end to outsourcing. www.alpa.org

Seems we didn't attend?? Did the Politburo miss that?