US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/17- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[veritasaequitas]

Well?

 

[BoeingBoy]

What regional jets are allowed by the west vs east contracts? Please mention max seats. Also please mention the regional jets that are allowed per mainline aircraft.

Both contracts have numerical limits - I just used your "almost unlimited" terminology. Odd that you'd disagree with such non-specific terminology when it's applied to the East contract yet use it yourself when speaking of the West contract.

Jim

 

[veritasaequitas]

What regional jets are allowed by the west vs east contracts? Please mention max seats. Also please mention the regional jets that are allowed per mainline aircraft. How did the min aircraft portion of each perspective airline agreement originate?

 

[veritasaequitas]

Well?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Since you used the "almost unlimited" term I see no need to do your research for you. Suffice it to say that the West contract allows fewer RJ's than the East contract, both in actual numbers and relative to mainline fleet size. The TA obviously does provide the same numerical limit on the largest RJ's for both contracts.

Jim

 

[HP2USFA]

Must be the rose colored glasses or the margaritas, I have no faith in your management team I think they are idiots, they have not proven to be effective leaders and are the laughing stock of the industry, but time will tell.

I'm sorry, but LLC does not have the monopoly on hated upper management by any means - nor are we alone in the stupid idea market. And LLC certainly doesn't corner the markets on idiots in leadership positions... though I'm sure at some point some CEO in the industry thought that the money saved by our pilot fiasco would have looked good on their books too. Who wouldn't want to save money paying pilots?

If anyone is a laughing stock in this industry it's (quite unfortunately) the Pilots and this insane process we're all being held hostage by. We passed moral high ground years ago. While I stand with the West on the grounds that binding is binding (and that's the only reason I've even taken a 'side'), this entire quagmire has tainted everyone involved. All the sympathy cards have long turned to dust.

Flame away. I really could care less at this point... the only thing anyone's proven on this board is the capacity for complete immobility in the mindsets of grown adults.

Nothing else.

 

[veritasaequitas]

Since you used the "almost unlimited" term I see no need to do your research for you. Suffice it to say that the West contract allows fewer RJ's than the East contract, both in actual numbers and relative to mainline fleet size. The TA obviously does provide the same numerical limit on the largest RJ's for both contracts.

Jim

The West allows 86 seat aircraft. East allows 70's

West Scope clause;

For every two (2) aircraft in excess of 145
that are added to the Company mainline
fleet in revenue service, the Company
may allow three (3) additional CRJ-
900 or equivalent aircraft to be operated
in revenue service; or for every one (1)
aircraft in excess of 145 that is added to
the Company mainline fleet in revenue
service, the Company may allow two (2)
CRJ-700 or equivalent aircraft or three... yada yada

There is a provision that if the company exceeds the number, the west pilots are allowed to grieve it, just like the Midwest Airlines pilots tried.

The TA has nothing to do with regional flying capabilities.

 

[BoeingBoy]

The West allows 86 seat aircraft. East allows 70's

Superseded by the transition agreement for the West contract. For the East contract, you're forgetting the concessions - LOA 91 allowed up to 78 seats at Express and LOA 93 allowed E190's in certain circumstances.

LOA 91 amended the East contract to allow up to 465 RJ's (150 "small SJ's" and 365 'medium/large SJ's") - a much larger number than that "almost unlimited" limit in the West contract. If the single certificate and TA didn't require that the company be limited to both contracts, the East could add two medium or large "SJ's" for each group II or higher mainline addition above 315 airplanes.

The West contract allows up to 163 RJ's.

As mentioned, both contracts allow for increasing the number of RJ's if the mainline fleet grows beyond specified numbers, but the West contract only allows 3 large RJ's per 2 mainline aircraft while the East contract allows for a 2 or 2 increase in large RJ's.

So you tell me - which contract allows "almost unlimited" RJ's? The one with a limit of 163 or the one with a limit of 465? The one that allows a 3:2 increase in large RJ's or the one that allows a 1:1 increase in large RJ's if the mainline fleet grows above a given level? The one that allows up to 86 seats or the one that allows up to E190's?

While you say the West pilots accepted pay in exchange for "almost unlimited" RJ's, I stand by my statement that the East accepted concessions in exchange for a much larger number of RJ's - "almost unlimited" in comparison to the West.

Any other "facts" you'd like to twist?

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

I'm sorry, but LLC does not have the monopoly on hated upper management by any means - nor are we alone in the stupid idea market. And LLC certainly doesn't corner the markets on idiots in leadership positions... though I'm sure at some point some CEO in the industry thought that the money saved by our pilot fiasco would have looked good on their books too. Who wouldn't want to save money paying pilots?

If anyone is a laughing stock in this industry it's (quite unfortunately) the Pilots and this insane process we're all being held hostage by. We passed moral high ground years ago. While I stand with the West on the grounds that binding is binding (and that's the only reason I've even taken a 'side'), this entire quagmire has tainted everyone involved. All the sympathy cards have long turned to dust.

Flame away. I really could care less at this point... the only thing anyone's proven on this board is the capacity for complete immobility in the mindsets of grown adults.

Nothing else.

LLC stands for Limited Liability Company. Do you even know who you work for?

 

[HP2USFA]

LLC stands for Limited Liability Company. Do you even know who you work for?

LOL! It was late sorry LCC.

Better?

 

[cleardirect]

What regional jets are allowed by the west vs east contracts? Please mention max seats. Also please mention the regional jets that are allowed per mainline aircraft. How did the min aircraft portion of each perspective airline agreement originate?

I suggest that you read TA 8. That explains who could fly what and how many.

The company argument was that the east could fly 315 RJ the west could fly 50 for a total of 365.

The arbitrator agreed. By my public high school education 315 is a lot more that 50. Now which side had the weaker scope clause?

But back to the original discussion. The dispatchers got their method of seniority because the west was going to get improved pay and benefits and there were a lot fewer numbers.

The east wants everything. A better contract and better seniority. Read the Nicolau, read the transcripts, read a newspaper US Airways was done before the merger.

But none of that matters, the arbitration is done, the award is final it does not matter what other groups did we will live with what we have. Posting this AGAIN was a fun exersice but really a waste of time since it was discussed two years ago, a year ago and will probably be brought up again after the ninth spanks usapa to "prove" that Nicolau was wrong. It's done time to get over it.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Enough said then. What puzzles me is that If even you can "get" that, then there's seemingly little reason for anyone out west to have any rational hopes for your neverending propoganda having the slightest effect on the east folks. What am I missing here?

Propaganda, in this sense, is the promotion of falsehoods or the intent to mislead a group of uninformed people about the truth. USAPA and their supporters here engage in propaganda and misdirection in order to fool less-informed followers that there is somehow hope for actually winning the seniority battle in court and thus they should have hope for a new CBA with competitive pay. It is the prevalence of that falsehood that fuels their cause and helps them to hold on (at least in their minds) to the majority that would be required to continue the delay tactic which is their ultimate goal. The pursuit of the LOA93 grievance which has nearly zero chance of success is in the same category of misdirection and building false hopes among the east pilots in order to further dealy the NIC.

If USAPA truly believed that the east pilots would vote down any TA that included the NIC and would be more than happy to finish of their careers at LOA93 rates, then there would be no need for subversive propaganda. There would also be no need to continue to pay Seham millions in futile legal pursuits. If USAPA was absolutely convinced that this was the east pilot mindset, they would negotiate in good faith and put out TA after TA which would get voted down by a majority of MIGS. This more honorable course of action would personally save each east pilot thousands of dollars and would accomplish the same exact result. The fact that USAPA doesn’t pursue the less costly, more honorable, and legally sound course of action is that they obviously believe that if the east pilots knew the truth, the NIC would have a good chance of passing a TA vote.

The west pilots know that this is the strategy. The company knows that this is the strategy. The courts know (because Seham told them so) that this is the strategy. Pilots from OALs and other interested parties that post here know that this is the strategy. The only people who could possibly not know that DELAY is the only strategy USAPA really has would be east pilots who haven’t come to this conclusion because they have bought in to the propaganda message.

What the non-USAPA supporters post here is generally factual or the outlining a highly probable outcome based on the rule of law. So this is not propaganda – it is an attempt to counter the USAPA falsehoods with facts. If those east pilots USAPA is hoping to fool with their pep rally messages begin to discern fact from fiction, USAPA would be in real trouble with their constituents. That is why I post even though I “get itâ€￾ that USAPA is all about delaying the NIC at all costs.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Delay, as a tactic, has historically been quite effective. The Russians used it to great effect to repel two invaders - one Napoleonic and the other Nazi - by delaying until the Russian winter accomplished what the Russian - or Soviet - Army could not, at least in the early rounds.

And speaking of rounds, Mohammed Ali employed his own version of delay - the rope-a-dope - with great success on some memorable occassions.

Corporations love using the delay tactic to demoralize and then defeat their opponenets. There are many more examples.

Still, if you are implying that delay is our only motivation, after all that we have set in motion over the last three plus years - then your view is overly simplistic and incomplete; and - you are employing your own version of propaganda.

 

[Dont call me Shirley]

Superseded by the transition agreement for the West contract. For the East contract, you're forgetting the concessions - LOA 91 allowed up to 78 seats at Express and LOA 93 allowed E190's in certain circumstances.

LOA 91 amended the East contract to allow up to 465 RJ's (150 "small SJ's" and 365 'medium/large SJ's") - a much larger number than that "almost unlimited" limit in the West contract. If the single certificate and TA didn't require that the company be limited to both contracts, the East could add two medium or large "SJ's" for each group II or higher mainline addition above 315 airplanes.



Jim

How in heck did the pilots agree to so much outsourcing? Wouldn't have been better to keep such flying in house - albeit at a different pay rate - than giving all that flying to the Air Wisconsins, Mesas, and Republics? Just askin'

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Delay, as a tactic, has historically been quite effective. The Russians used it to great effect to repel two invaders - one Napoleonic and the other Nazi - by delaying until the Russian winter accomplished what the Russian - or Soviet - Army could not, at least in the early rounds.

And speaking of rounds, Mohammed Ali employed his own version of delay - the rope-a-dope - with great success on some memorable occassions.

Corporations love using the delay tactic to demoralize and then defeat their opponenets. There are many more examples.

Still, if you are implying that delay is our only motivation, after all that we have set in motion over the last three plus years - then your view is overly simplistic and incomplete; and - you are employing your own version of propaganda.

One could perhaps also make a case that the east Blitzkrieg has run out of steam...