US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/17- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[lynyrdskynyrd]

The Nicolau award did not follow ALPA merger policy. Another arbitrator disagreed with most of the major arguments of the Nicolau "award".

The disparity in the findings is quite troubling.

The USAirways, America West dispatchers seniorty arbitration.

Most professions have accountability, some do not.

"Every other union blah blah blah." Read this footnote from the Bloch award you reference. What does it tell you?

9. This is not to say one could not construct some sort of mid-ground that would attempt to incorporate a methodology utilizing both a mechanical and a date of hire approach. Several factors militate against this. First, these are relatively small units. The West group is comprised of 37 individuals. The East local has 120 active employees with 32 currently on furlough (as of the date of the hearing.) It is logistically difficult to mold a hybrid list, given this small a unit. Moreover, unlike pilot mergers, which often involve companion considerations including aircraft types, differing status and categories and a variety of additional distinctions, the instant case is considerably more basic. These employees, on the other hand, perform the same functions, in essentially the same manner and will operate under a combined agreement that features no fence or any of the other arcane elements peculiar to pilot cases.
10 West post-hearing brief, p. 8.
11 West Ex. E.
12 Joint Ex. 1.

 

[veritasaequitas]

There are inquiring minds that do not listen to opinions, they research their information. I am attempting to provide a bridge to this.

 

[hp_fa]

Did you read the dispatchers award sir. I offered this up for inquiring minds. What is your point?

The CBL's of the dispatchers weren't those of ALPA, so the parameters under which that arbitrator functioned were different. If you can fly an ILS to minimums in a C-172 it doesn't mean you can do it in a B-737. Different parameters.

 

[cynic]

There are inquiring minds that do not listen to opinions, they research their information. I am attempting to provide a bridge to this.

I applaud you for your efforts, most people aren't willing to post information that undermines their position in a debate.

 

[veritasaequitas]

The CBL's of the dispatchers weren't those of ALPA, so the parameters under which that arbitrator functioned were different. If you can fly an ILS to minimums in a C-172 it doesn't mean you can do it in a B-737. Different parameters.

Is this your legal "expert" opinion on a court case sir or more such, a general opinion, everyone has one.

 

[hp_fa]

Is this your legal "expert" opinion on a court case sir or more such, a general opinion, everyone has one.

Both. The legal part is that the rules were indeed different because the parameters were different. The other part was an analogy that would make sense to a pilot.

You good with that?

 

[BoeingBoy]

There are inquiring minds that do not listen to opinions, they research their information. I am attempting to provide a bridge to this.

By offering your opinion on the info?

Jim

 

[veritasaequitas]

Both. The legal part is that the rules were indeed different because the parameters were different. The other part was an analogy that would make sense to a pilot.

You good with that?

No. But we are in agreement on a previous post of yours, quite a mess we have.

Your post

 

[flyinawa]

Did you read the dispatchers award sir. I offered this up for inquiring minds. What is your point?

Why don't you read the Nicalou and compare it to the dispatchers award? My exact point is the disparity of the awards. A guy in the "crew room" did not tell me this, I researched it.

I offered the links for those that did not require your "opinion". I provided links that provide varied opinions.

The link is provided again for your education.

USAirways, America West dispatcher seniority award.

I have in fact read both of them before. I previously misunderstood your post but after further rereading, I think I understand the point you were trying to make. What you are suggesting is that the AWA dispatchers should have called Bloch a senile old fool, refused to accept the award, and should have started a new union in an attempt to bypass the implementation of it.

 

[veritasaequitas]

I have in fact read both of them before. I previously misunderstood your post but after further rereading, I think I understand the point you were trying to make. What you are suggesting is that the AWA dispatchers should have called Bloch a senile old fool, refused to accept the award, and should have started a new union in an attempt to bypass the implementation of it.

That is your opinion sir, not mine.

 

[EastUS]

......and I understand that delaying the NIC is a victory for your side.

Enough said then. What puzzles me is that If even you can "get" that, then there's seemingly little reason for anyone out west to have any rational hopes for your neverending propoganda having the slightest effect on the east folks. What am I missing here?

 

[cleardirect]

Did you read the dispatchers award sir. I offered this up for inquiring minds. What is your point?

Why don't you read the Nicalou and compare it to the dispatchers award? My exact point is the disparity of the awards. A guy in the "crew room" did not tell me this, I researched it.

I offered the links for those that did not require your "opinion". I provided links that provide varied opinions.

The link is provided again for your education.

USAirways, America West dispatcher seniority award.

Standard of Integration

It is surely true, as West argues, both that this case requires a determination of “fair and equitableâ€￾, under the circumstances, and that “dovetailingâ€￾ (the shorthand employed in this case for integration by date of hire) is not always fair and equitable.8 In this case, however, the record reflects a history (1) of two carriers whose merger worked to the relative advantage of each, and (2) of respective bargaining unit members, both of whose employment situations were bettered by the combination. If, on the one hand, Airways Dispatchers were the beneficiaries of new life in general, it is also true that the AWA inherited a labor agreement that treats them better; in many cases, substantially so. Without question, a date of hire approach will, as noted below, operate to the disbenefit of West workers. In part, however, that is the natural Transport Workers Union Of America, Local 545 and 542 result of the fact the East unit is manifestly more senior. And, adoption of the West algorithm results in a marked windfall for West employees, featuring seniority advances that are nowhere justified by the record in this case. 9


8 See West brief, p. 4.

9. This is not to say one could not construct some sort of mid-ground that would attempt to incorporate a methodology utilizing both a mechanical and a date of hire approach. Several factors militate against this. First, these are relatively small units. The West group is comprised of 37 individuals. The East local has 120 active employees with 32 currently on furlough (as of the date of the hearing.) It is logistically difficult to mold a hybrid list, given this small a unit. Moreover, unlike pilot mergers, which often involve companion considerations including aircraft types, differing status and categories and a variety of additional distinctions, the instant case is considerably more basic. These employees, on the other hand, perform the same functions, in essentially the same manner and will operate under a combined agreement that features no fence or any of the other arcane elements peculiar to pilot cases.

If you would like to use the dispatchers or flight attendents form of integration I suggest that you go apply. Let’s see. Would you like to compare the Nicolau and the dispatchers? What reason did he give for using DOH? Read note 9.

The more important issue, that the west dispatchers were going to get a much better contract. In the case of the pilots the EAST pilots are going to get a much better contract. The opinion from the arbitrator the airways dispatchers were getting a new life. Meaning that without the merger the company was dead.

What else does it say. That DOH will operate to the disbenifit of west workers. So the arbitrator knowing that DOH will be bad for the west but will make up for it with improved wages and a better contract.

If the east had gotten DOH and a better contract what do the west pilots get out of this little marriage?

 

[veritasaequitas]

The more important issue, that the west dispatchers were going to get a much better contract. In the case of the pilots the EAST pilots are going to get a much better contract. The opinion from the arbitrator the airways dispatchers were getting a new life.

Meaning that without the merger the company was dead.

Zero neutral contract. The America West pilots accepted pay in return for almost unlimited regional jets and no furlough protection.

Your very tiring quote that the America West pilots harp on "Meaning that without the merger the company was dead."

West’s claim that U.S. Airways emerged from bankruptcy “only because it [was] acquired by a stronger enterpriseâ€￾10 is reflected neither in the KPMG audit report (cited by West)11 nor in any other portion of the evidence. Instead, each carrier had something to contribute. Airways, for example, was much larger. It served almost twice as many destinations as AWA and carried twice the number of passengers.12 Airways has substantially more cash on hand, following the merger agreement.

These constant suggestions of America West saving USAirways is unfounded and angers the moderator, but needs to be rebutted.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Zero neutral contract.

Which doesn't mean that the East pilots wouldn't have gotten a better contract.

The America West pilots accepted pay in return for almost unlimited regional jets and no furlough protection.

While the East pilots accepted concessions in return for "almost unlimited regional jets and no furlough protection".

Jim

 

[veritasaequitas]

Which doesn't mean that the East pilots wouldn't have gotten a better contract.



While the East pilots accepted concessions in return for "almost unlimited regional jets and no furlough protection".

Jim

What regional jets are allowed by the west vs east contracts? Please mention max seats. Also please mention the regional jets that are allowed per mainline aircraft. How did the min aircraft portion of each perspective airline agreement originate?