US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/17- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nycbusdriver]

But wait. How many times has it been said that it is the line pilots that direct the BPR, the BPR directs the national officers but it is the line pilot that is in charge?

So all of your misdirection now is contrary to other statements. So what is it? Do the line pilots control the direction and therefore demand a delay and violation of the injunction. Or does the union leadership control the direction and the line pilots are just fooling themselves into thinking that they really have any control?

It's really not that difficult to understand.

The line pilots drive the BPR, whose official position is the Nicolau travesty.

As a totally separate matter, the line pilots also hold their individual power to vote. And vote NO.

I always thought that ATPs had to be able to read, understand and speak the English language fluently.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Was there any compromise offered from the America West pilots, since the day of the arbitration award?

Implicit in your question is the idea that a fair medium on negotiation took place. Of course, no such event occurred. The East, whose expectations somehow got so out of whack they expected to restore their shattered careers at the West's expense, threw a tantrum to ALPA National and demanded the West make concessions. Now, my fair-minded colleague, how could you expect us realistically to discuss compromise with the East holding a gun to our heads?

The negotiation-mediation-arbitration process allowed us to meet as equals and that process ended with the Nicolau Award. After that no such neutral medium for discussion existed. Prater's milquetoast "If any ALPA carrier has a problem we all have a problem" was not a neutral forum for compromise -- it was a demand for concessions. Plus, the idea that arbitrated disputes can be re-opened when one side throws a tantrum trivializes the whole process. Not to mention the amusing perjury of Easties proclaiming the arbitration was only meant to apply to merger committees.

So you see, your question is irrelevant. Post-arbitration there was no chance for compromise because compromise was built into the process already. We saw the East's idea of compromise and that resulted in a court finding a violation of USAPA's Duty to Fairly Represent. Lost in the rhetoric of the Ninth Circuit of Appeals is that the premise of the DFR case isn't in dispute. It's settled and until the East accepts this reality there will be no peace.

The East started this war and only the East can end it.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

It's really not that difficult to understand.

The line pilots drive the BPR, whose official position is the Nicolau travesty.

As a totally separate matter, the line pilots also hold their individual power to vote. And vote NO.

I always thought that ATPs had to be able to read, understand and speak the English language fluently.

I seem to remember that the east agreed to the binding arbitration that caused the "Nicolau travesty"

But, they cravenly tried to wuss out of that agreement, didn't they?

Live up to your agreements, plain and simple.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The America West pilots have stated many times how trivial the complaint USAPA made against them. This has been characterized many times by comments of a few posts on a message board;

school prank

get rid of the suit

they hate us and want to destroy us

they are out to get us

the judge dismissed this, most of it with prejudice they are quick to say by the way

The complaint is the following;

USAPA vs AWAPPA

Order of the cout.

Order of the court

Read please and make your own decision.

The court case is still on going.

Here are some of my favorite excerpts from these documents:

In May 2005, US Airways merged with America West.

USAPA can't even fact check enough to know that America West Airlines and US Airways merged on September 27, 2005.

Because the Plaintiff has failed to allege facts which could give rise
to a plausible claim finding that the Defendants acquired or attempted to
acquire property rights from USAPA, the Court concludes that the Plaintiff
has failed to satisfy the “obtainingâ€￾ prong of the extortion statute.

As such, there is no basis for finding the threat of continued
criminal activity that is necessary to establish a “pattern of racketeering
activityâ€￾ in this case. Plaintiff’s federal RICO claims therefore fail for this
reason as well.

Further, the Court has determined that the Plaintiff has failed to make
sufficient factual allegations

USAPA failed ... USAPA failed ...USAPA failed - all according to the Memorandum of Decision and Order of a US District judge in NC.

Hmm. Let me think...wasn't there another US District judge that unilaterally ruled against USAPA and its skilled legal counsel Lee Seham?

Oh and I also like the part where USAPA claimed that denying jumpseats was somehow a crime violating the federal racketeering laws.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I seem to remember that the east agreed to the binding arbitration that caused the "Nicolau travesty"

But, they cravenly tried to wuss out of that agreement, didn't they?

Live up to your agreements, plain and simple.

Somebody hit that Victrola again.

I can't imagine a mind without an original thought,. Ever.

 

[luvn737s]

The west pilots conceded the top 517 positions by not arguing against them in the final award.

The west pilots came to the negotiations with reasonable expectations and were awarded something close to their expectations. There was no wild celebration, simply the satisfaction that reasonableness was acknowledged and rewarded.

The east came with an extreme position fortified with the braggadocio that accompanies having the majority. Their extreme position was rejected and it hurt their pride. They had a prescription for hurt pride (USAPA) but it didn't cure the underlying problem which was their extreme and unworkable DOH position.

It's time for the Nicolau to be implemented and see that there will be no instantaneous flood of pilots from the west to the east. If there are further RIFs then west pilots will likely transfer rather than be furloughed. But if there are upgrades, then each pilot will choose for themselves whether it is worth uprooting their families to chase an upgrade that might just as easily be had at home 6 months later.

The east needs to really consider whether the future (5-10 years) is going to be predominantly expansion or predominantly contraction. If you think things will get substantially worse, then you might be justified in stalling the Nic, but you should be more worried about the airline collapsing, since it doesn't have that much more downside available and still remain a viable independent airline. Straw men such as PHX closing, while possible, are much less likely than other scenarios.

If, on the other hand you see the future having more potential upside (setting aside attrition for a moment) then denying yourself a pay raise in order to defend against the phantom onslaught of west pilots is shortsighted and foolish.

As for attrition, that is a mixed bag. If the airline wishes to balance it's flying it can refuse to backfill east attrition. If the restrictions of the Transition Agreement regarding the movement of airframes between east and west, then a case could be made that the company should petition the courts to void the TA and allow it to carry on it's business because USAPA will not perform the steps necessary to get to a joint contract. This is where it's better to not get hung up on the term "our attrition" since it's ultimately the company that decides where the flying will occur. Waiting until the last of the old guys to retire on the east and their positions filled by an east pilot is not a viable strategy, and it presupposes a declining business model that is also unsustainable. In other words, if the only way you upgrade is through attrition, you likely won't have any airline in the first place. Sustainable upgrades must come from a growing airline.

In a growing airline scenario, there is much less negative impact of the Nicolau award. Not all west pilots will pursue the east upgrades (via growth and attrition) if there are a constant flow of upgrades on the west as well. Only in the declining airline scenario do you see the east pilot facing furlough while a west pilot transfers east rather than be furloughed.

So which do you plan for? Which scenario is more likely to occur? Tactics for likely scenarios are much more worth investing in than the "outside chance". Shouldn't the east pilots demand that USAPA support the likely scenarios and stop the fear mongering that plays to their most extreme supporters? The mainstream pilots are left earning less and wondering why all the union efforts are put toward building political bomb shelters and nothing is being done to move the pilot group along the path to enjoy the benefits of a successful airline.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

Here are some of my favorite excerpts from these documents:

After rereading the documents recently, I must also say that the case was very weak. The union was in a tight spot at the time because they knew of the threats (physical and financial) from McIlvenna and Abbott to the proposed rep. Should they let them go, it would open up the union to damages from that gentleman. The phone calls, postage, and jumpseat were most likely fluff thrown in to add to the billable reading time for the lawyers on both sides.

They may have been better off just trying to file criminal charges against those two, since there was some admissable evidence. They had evidence for the phone calls, but where is the crime? Basically stupid college tricks wasting more time for the perps than doing any real harm to anyone else.

 

[Dont call me Shirley]

And your beloved USAir/USAirways has been the darling of the industry for how many years now?

The pestilence has always been East of the Mississppi and North of the Mason-Dixon line.

===============
OK - I know that the seniority integration is a very touchy issue - but please can we stop the HP/US "which airline was better (or worse) nonsense. For better or worse, it is one airline now. I miss PI and the old US, too. I am sure that there were some great things about the old HP (remember the free booze in coach?) as well. But just no more "your HP sucked" "oh yeah, your USAir was worse" nonsense.

While I believe very few things said by mssrs Parker and Kirby, I do believe that without merger it is very questionable that neither carrier would be around in any recognizable form today without merger.

So go ahead using bandwidth and keeping the mods busy with the endless debate on the Nic decision, but no more US vs HP stuff. OK?

 

[luvn737s]

The union was in a tight spot at the time because they knew of the threats (physical and financial) from McIlvenna and Abbott to the proposed rep.

The difference between a threat and passing along their advice as to the potential difficulties associated with being part of USAPA would be plain to any reasonable person and litigating such an argument would be indefensible. USAPA continues to put itself in the awkward position of defending it's pride rather than serving it's members.

 

[hp_fa]

They may have been better off just trying to file criminal charges against those two, since there was some admissable evidence. They had evidence for the phone calls, but where is the crime? Basically stupid college tricks wasting more time for the perps than doing any real harm to anyone else.

Private citizens or business entities cannot file criminal charges. That is the sole purview of a prosecutor. Civil RICO allegations can be made by a person or business entity and, at least in Arizona, the State can take over the case if they choose, which would be based on evidence and likelihood of a favorable verdict.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Somebody hit that Victrola again.

I can't imagine a mind without an original thought,. Ever.

Used to be that a personal attack like that would send you to the cornfield.

Of course that is all you have to offer, since you can't comprehend the whole concept of Binding, and living up to your promises.

So, what part of Binding do you not get?

 

[Dont call me Shirley]

QUOTE (N924PS @ Feb 22 2010, 05:29 AM)
And your beloved USAir/USAirways has been the darling of the industry for how many years now?

The pestilence has always been East of the Mississppi and North of the Mason-Dixon line.

===============
OK - I know that the seniority integration is a very touchy issue - but please can we stop the HP/US "which airline was better (or worse) nonsense. For better or worse, it is one airline now. I miss PI and the old US, too. I am sure that there were some great things about the old HP (remember the free booze in coach?) as well. But just no more "your HP sucked" "oh yeah, your USAir was worse" nonsense.

While I believe very few things said by mssrs Parker and Kirby, I do believe that without merger it is very questionable that neither carrier would be around in any recognizable form today without merger.

So go ahead using bandwidth and keeping the mods busy with the endless debate on the Nic decision, but no more US vs HP stuff. OK?

 

[EastUS]

I can't imagine a mind without an original thought,. Ever.

Indeed sir, but one can not deny the immense weight of empirical evidence to the contrary. In this particular case, it seems "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

 

[88 B.T.D.]

The difference between a threat and passing along their advice as to the potential difficulties associated with being part of USAPA would be plain to any reasonable person

Assault can be prosecuted based on the percieved threat, even if done in jest. According to the written testimony of the rep, he did actually fear for his safety. The threat of financial pain if given by a person who has the power to carry it out is a real threat, just like extortion if there is something to reveal.

Like I said before, once they had a statement from the victim, getting a DA involved in questioning the suspects would have been a better route to take IMO.

 

[Freebird]

Assault can be prosecuted based on the percieved threat, even if done in jest. According to the written testimony of the rep, he did actually fear for his safety. The threat of financial pain if given by a person who has the power to carry it out is a real threat, just like extortion if there is something to reveal.

Like I said before, once they had a statement from the victim, getting a DA involved in questioning the suspects would have been a better route to take IMO.

You have just described the DFR claim against Usapa by the West pilots. Nicely done.