US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[inverted]

Will you accept the decision as just, if it doesn't go USAPA's way?

Or continue the blame game for a few more years......

No , the East should fight indefinitely to see that the groups are never put together in the same cockpits. The longer apart , the better chances that events will occur to preclude a joint contract and seniority list. Sorry dudes and pilot girl, we don't want to have anything to do with you. Nobody wants a PHX hub. Your Hub is a flub.


Inverted

 

[cleardirect]

No , the East should fight indefinitely to see that the groups are never put together in the same cockpits. The longer apart , the better chances that events will occur to preclude a joint contract and seniority list. Sorry dudes and pilot girl, we don't want to have anything to do with you. Nobody wants a PHX hub. Your Hub is a flub.


Inverted

I wonder why it is only the east pilots that don't want to play nice? The company merged the two so the could run one company. They want to put it together. The west pilots have accepted this disaster and want nothing to do with all of you but we have accepted this are are willing to work together. The federal injunction says that we will be put together.

You would be wrong about a PHX hub. The company and stockholders want a PHX. BTW during the last snow storm which hub was able to keep this company moving PAX?

Be honest, if you had gotten DOH would you still want separate ops? Kind of telling.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

No , the East should fight indefinitely to see that the groups are never put together in the same cockpits. The longer apart , the better chances that events will occur to preclude a joint contract and seniority list. Sorry dudes and pilot girl, we don't want to have anything to do with you. Nobody wants a PHX hub. Your Hub is a flub.


Inverted

How childish. We should have let you guys go Chapter 7, such arrogance.

 

[AWE Dog]

BTW during the last snow storm which hub was able to keep this company moving PAX?

Be honest, if you had gotten DOH would you still want separate ops? Kind of telling.
[/quote]
The object is to make money not just move pax. Separate ops is DOH, I like it.

 

[Metroyet]

No , the East should fight indefinitely to see that the groups are never put together in the same cockpits. The longer apart , the better chances that events will occur to preclude a joint contract and seniority list. Sorry dudes and pilot girl, we don't want to have anything to do with you. Nobody wants a PHX hub. Your Hub is a flub.


Inverted

You're right. Not nearly enough Rust for AAA. PIT was a fabulous hub in a thriving city.

 

[nic4us]

The object is to make money not just move pax. Separate ops is DOH, I like it.

A lecture on how to turn a profit from a pilot who worked for a company that could not, how amusing.

Seperate ops is not DOH, it is more precisely Nic with a temporary fence erected by an errant group of dodgers.

 

[oscarjazz]

Oscar- Hate is Ex Eal. He signed the letter when he left. The Trump boys signed the same letter. They all resigned from EAL. How do you then go back and use EAL seniority? You veered off the road after he told you how it happened and blew a lot of steam about nothing when you don't get it.

Date of hire affects many things, including pay longevity, vacation, sick accrual, etc. What date of hire was given to the Trump Shuttle pilots by Airways management? I bet dollars to doughnuts it was their Eastern date of hire. Was this some gift from the kind and benevolent management team there?

The problem is I do get it. I get that your date of hire only has currency on your own list. In a merger, there are so many variables surrounding seniority lists, that relying on a simplistic date of hire is only usable when you randomly have lists that are demographically similar. In those cases you can choose almost any integration method and it will work.

Some questions for you. On the East pay scale,

1. how much does a thirty year A-320 captain make?
2. how much does a ten year A-320 captain make?
3. how much does a twenty year A-320 first officer make?

Give me the answers to those questions and I will show you how your own pre-merger contract that only the East pilots negotiated, recognized that status and category is much more important than longevity in determining your compensation. This was the scheme that East pilots came up with, not a senile arbitrator and not the evil Am West pilots in PHX. This is how compensation is done for pilots in this industry. That is why every seniority integration arbitration in the last 20 years has been some type of status and category or a ratio.

For a group of experienced pilots, with many years in the industry, how you all can be surprised by this is beyond belief. That is why your crying about date of hire and losing 17 years and all the rest of that horse hockey is just situational ethics. You feel you deserve better and so you are trying to take it by force from the West pilots. Call it what you want but in my book that is the biggest lack of honesty and integrity I have ever seen.

I know we are all supposed to honor Capt. Sully, but his testimony about honor and integrity during the Addington trial made me sick to my stomach. Trying to trade his celebrity status into a call for honor and integrity when every outsider that looks at this situation and sees the bullying, dishonest behavior of the East, is just too much. Just because Bill Gates has billions more than me, it doesn't mean I get to steal his car because I believe I deserve it.

As I said in an earlier post, you guys have lost this case, you lost it the minute the company accepted the Nicolau list. Whatever the Ninth rules, in fact even if the Addington case had never been filed, LCC management will NEVER accept a change to that list. It would make them liable for hundreds of millions in damages. It would violate the Transition Agreement that they signed. No need to sue fellow pilots, just sue the company who has bigger pockets. That is why LCC was dismissed from the Addington case, they had rejected the DOH list in total. They will continue to reject it.

I know you are happy with your separate ops. Be happy with it. Just know that your group's behavior has lost all respect from the rest of the industry. Probably doesn't matter to you.

 

[Hate2fly]

BTW during the last snow storm which hub was able to keep this company moving PAX?

Be honest, if you had gotten DOH would you still want separate ops? Kind of telling.

The object is to make money not just move pax. Separate ops is DOH, I like it.

Dog,

Seperate operations has been a good deal and will continue to be a good deal far into the future. When the 9th terminates Wakes law we will have permanent seperate operations. With the NMB on the property we will both be in Section 6 negotiations. The company will not fight us because a joint contract would cost them so much in compensation and benefits for a joint contract. The company is saving tons of money keeping us seperate. I feel bad for the westies that they have put themselves in a bad spot. The 9th decision really has no effect on the east because we will always have our voting rights. This is one of the things even Wake realized.


Hate

 

[inverted]

I wonder why it is only the east pilots that don't want to play nice? The company merged the two so the could run one company. They want to put it together. The west pilots have accepted this disaster and want nothing to do with all of you but we have accepted this are are willing to work together. The federal injunction says that we will be put together.

You would be wrong about a PHX hub. The company and stockholders want a PHX. BTW during the last snow storm which hub was able to keep this company moving PAX?

Be honest, if you had gotten DOH would you still want separate ops? Kind of telling.

DOH or not, it is not a good idea to put these two pilot groups together. No legacy carrier will merge with USAirways because they don't or want or need a 1500 pilot PHX Hub. Who does???? Parker must come up with a way to split the groups. Maybe Chapter 7 or 11 will do it, but right now Parker has an airline with an anchor around it. Parker is running out of options.

Oh yes, and thanks for moving the pax during the snow storm...like moving the deck chairs on the Titanic. Good day to you fellas.

Inverted

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

You guys don't want us seperate, you just want date of hire with all of us in your right seats. Absent that, my oh my, the drama.

 

[Hate2fly]

You guys don't want us seperate, you just want date of hire with all of us in your right seats. Absent that, my oh my, the drama.

Lynyrd,

Trust me on this........I have never talked to an east guy or girl that wants this thing merged. You keep exactly what you brought to this merger and we keep what we brought. Average age 59 years old in the east operation means big time attrition in just over 24 months. The east side will have to start hiring off the street in 2012 because of the east attrition. Drama give us all a break. You will stay in seperate operations and you will get all that west attrition and career expectations you dreamed of when you took the AWA job.

Hate

 

[CallawayGolf]

The overconfidence presented on this board about the ninth’s ruling is palpable. No one outside of that circuit court can say with any degree of confidence what the ruling will be or how that ruling will ultimately play out in the future of US pilots or USAPA. History and sound reasoning weigh heavily towards a win for the Addington side, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say it is an absolute certainty.

If the posts here are indicative of the mindset of the majority of east pilots, I have to wonder if the day the ninth rules will be like the day the NIC award was announced. I don’t have the figures in front of me, but there were mass sick calls from east pilots when NIC went public. Those who called in said that they were too emotional over the arbitration to safely perform their flight duties. Sick calls and flight cancellations went on for days until the emotionally-affected east pilots could regain their composure enough to fly again. How they didn’t see this coming is beyond me.

The NIC arbitration was easy to predict before it was announced – that is anyone who took an honest assessment of the situation would have concluded that the board would use a ratio integration of the seniority lists unless they went seriously off course for some unpredictable reason. IMO the same holds true for the ninth’s ruling. The handwriting is on the wall as to what the ruling will most likely be, but the overconfidence is so thick I have to wonder how the east pilots will react when this too doesn’t go their way. Will there be mass sick calls from pilots convinced the ninth would see things their way but now they are completely unprepared to handle the reality of what happened. What other self-inflicted emotional woes will befall those same pilots who have yet to think rationally about the upcoming ruling from the ninth? “Hope for the best but prepare for the worst†doesn’t seem to describe the east line of thinking.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Lynyrd,

Trust me on this........I have never talked to an east guy or girl that wants this thing merged. You keep exactly what you brought to this merger and we keep what we brought. Average age 59 years old in the east operation means big time attrition in just over 24 months. The east side will have to start hiring off the street in 2012 because of the east attrition. Drama give us all a break. You will stay in seperate operations and you will get all that west attrition and career expectations you dreamed of when you took the AWA job.

Hate

I could be very wrong, but I think the last few years of humoring your behaviour on the east may not be what you can expect going forward. You will still have your vote, to be sure, but I'm not so sure that your obstructionist behaviour will be without consequence.

I'm not so bold as to predict that, but it wouldn't surprise me.

 

[inverted]

The overconfidence presented on this board about the ninth’s ruling is palpable. No one outside of that circuit court can say with any degree of confidence what the ruling will be or how that ruling will ultimately play out in the future of US pilots or USAPA. History and sound reasoning weigh heavily towards a win for the Addington side, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say it is an absolute certainty.

If the posts here are indicative of the mindset of the majority of east pilots, I have to wonder if the day the ninth rules will be like the day the NIC award was announced. I don’t have the figures in front of me, but there were mass sick calls from east pilots when NIC went public. Those who called in said that they were too emotional over the arbitration to safely perform their flight duties. Sick calls and flight cancellations went on for days until the emotionally-affected east pilots could regain their composure enough to fly again. How they didn’t see this coming is beyond me.

The NIC arbitration was easy to predict before it was announced – that is anyone who took an honest assessment of the situation would have concluded that the board would use a ratio integration of the seniority lists unless they went seriously off course for some unpredictable reason. IMO the same holds true for the ninth’s ruling. The handwriting is on the wall as to what the ruling will most likely be, but the overconfidence is so thick I have to wonder how the east pilots will react when this too doesn’t go their way. Will there be mass sick calls from pilots convinced the ninth would see things their way but now they are completely unprepared to handle the reality of what happened. What other self-inflicted emotional woes will befall those same pilots who have yet to think rationally about the upcoming ruling from the ninth? “Hope for the best but prepare for the worst†doesn’t seem to describe the east line of thinking.

Did you hear me? What does any legacy carrier want with a large PHX Hub......you are a liability. To merge the pilot groups is suicide for Parker and USAiways. If the 9th is lost by USAPA, it does not mean that Parker is going to want a joint contract and seniority list.


Inverted

Inverted

 

[CallawayGolf]

DOH or not, it is not a good idea to put these two pilot groups together. No legacy carrier will merge with USAirways because they don't or want or need a 1500 pilot PHX Hub. Who does???? Parker must come up with a way to split the groups. Maybe Chapter 7 or 11 will do it, but right now Parker has an airline with an anchor around it. Parker is running out of options.

Oh yes, and thanks for moving the pax during the snow storm...like moving the deck chairs on the Titanic. Good day to you fellas.

Inverted

You clearly have no idea of who Doug Parker is or what his way of thinking is. Doug doesn’t ever want to lead a company into bankruptcy. He keeps his options open and works to find alternative sources of financing to keep operations going during tough financial times. Other CEOs are willing to bounce in and out of bankruptcy court, but not Doug. Some CEOs even negotiate themselves a nice multi-million dollar bonus for guiding a company in and out of bankruptcy, but you will not find Doug doing this.

This whole line of thinking that US will split up east/west operations or use bankruptcy to solve the pilot issues is such a twisted view of reality it could only come from … well, those already reality-challenged enough to dream something like this up. BTW 2009 was a nice recovery year for US. They positioned the company to make the best of the bad economy so bankruptcy is far less a discussion among the analysts than it was a year ago. Check the stock price for a sign of investor confidence.