US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[flypg]

Yep, just went through the DL/NW merger, any other questions?

Oh, I got it. You get paid by your position, type, base etc. or by your girth, height and common sense ?

You are right. No more questions for you.

 

[Hawkhunter]

I'm pretty sure that most of your fellow east pilots will disagree.

How do you know that? We talk with our fellow East pilots and you what? Keep wishing. I did enjoy my time off, thank you for the PM. I thought of you often.

 

[Flippin43]

Every merger is unique. I have gone through your merged list. With a few exeptions, the vast majority of pilots on your list ended up being just a few years within your counterpart's DOH. So the ratio formulation in the case of DAL/NWA worked for you.

I agree with your take on career expectations. I just wish someone would have told Nicolau. He bought the flawed argument that career expectations and financial condition trump all other considerations. Hard earned and easy to measure length of service was not even on his radar screen.

I did not pursue an airline career in order to be a permanent F/O. The NIC makes it impossible for a large block of our F/O's to ever check out as captain.


Finally, I have been on LOA93 payrates and a bankruptcy contract for several years now. Looking at the possibility of several more, lasting perhaps right up to my mandatory retirement. So you can call me stupid - but don't call me greedy for money.

This does seem to be the usapa "party line"

However,

Isn't it more like 170 (not a large block) that may not upgrade. Of that number one of your own proved that 80 would not have upgraded had there not been a merge. So it would seem there are truly some who are looking for a windfall.

Flip.

 

[Freebird]

The East Resolve is crumbling.

Put a contract up for a vote and it will pass.

They know it, that's why they're reluctant to do so. Sure the 5 or 6 multiple personalities on this board can rewrite history of what happened, but the truth is out there. Your MEC made a deal, they bet the farm and didn't get what they EXPECTED. And they never will.


We've wasted enough time with this mess. When the 9th denies the appeal, things will start to move around here.

Time for you to live up to your agreements. Your Career Expectations are no more important that any pilots' on any property. If you don't like it, take your PBGC stockpile and quit. Simple.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I'm pretty sure that most of your fellow east pilots will disagree.

As a 517 member of the east, I'm pretty sure your are wrong.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Seriously these guys address themselves as "Senior International Widebody Captain!"

Cite references, please. I have not seen that particular (or even similar) terminology here before.

 

[nic4us]

I agree with your take on career expectations. I just wish someone would have told Nicolau. He bought the flawed argument that career expectations and financial condition trump all other considerations. Hard earned and easy to measure length of service was not even on his radar screen.

I did not pursue an airline career in order to be a permanent F/O. The NIC makes it impossible for a large block of our F/O's to ever check out as captain.

Finally, I have been on LOA93 payrates and a bankruptcy contract for several years now. Looking at the possibility of several more, lasting perhaps right up to my mandatory retirement. So you can call me stupid - but don't call me greedy for money.

Actually, LOS was addressed in the Nic, particularly in Captain Brucia's dissenting opinion, and Mr. Nicolau's response to that opinion. And yes, LOS is easy to measure, but so is relative position, status and our W2s.

I recall a study done by an east rep that said at most the Nic would delay an east pilots upgrade by 2 years. If that 2 year delay causes some to never upgrade, they most likely would not have anyway. Also, usapa's DOH plan would take those upgrades away from West F/Os who also may never check out as captain prior to retirement. They want to rob Peter to pay Paul.

 

[nycbusdriver]

It would be great if George Nicolau was selected as the arbitrator for the east LOA 93 scrum. They'd have to beef up staffing on the suicide hotlines out east......LOL.

Alas (for you anyway,) the arbitrator was selected months ago, and it is not Nicolau.

I doubt Nicolau will be found on the "approved" list for use with USAPA. And, if by chance he was, he would be the first struck by USAPA during the selection process.

 

[nic4us]

Nic is fair and equitable..........Ok. The limo is on the way, the check is in the mail, OJ is not guilty, I love you, its only a cold sore, Ms SS is sane and reasonable (a west pilot), DP cares about you and customers, you guys get the drift....

Careful there. You might find the sane and reasonable response as a harrasment complaint seeking your termination if you are bold enough to confront her without an alias.

 

[cleardirect]

Every merger is unique. I have gone through your merged list. With a few exeptions, the vast majority of pilots on your list ended up being just a few years within your counterpart's DOH. So the ratio formulation in the case of DAL/NWA worked for you.

I agree with your take on career expectations. I just wish someone would have told Nicolau. He bought the flawed argument that career expectations and financial condition trump all other considerations. Hard earned and easy to measure length of service was not even on his radar screen.

I did not pursue an airline career in order to be a permanent F/O. The NIC makes it impossible for a large block of our F/O's to ever check out as captain.

Finally, I have been on LOA93 payrates and a bankruptcy contract for several years now. Looking at the possibility of several more, lasting perhaps right up to my mandatory retirement. So you can call me stupid - but don't call me greedy for money.

The NIC makes it impossible for a large block of our F/O's to ever check out as captain.

Could you give us a number backed up with data? I have heard this for a long time but no one can prove that statement. How many east F/O’s without the merger would never have checked out? How many F/O’s using LOS would never have checked out as captain? When you have those numbers we can discuss it. I think you will find the marginal number using Nicolau very small.

It has been stated that under the Nicolau it is a maximum delay of two years for an east F/O to upgrade. Will we have delay more than two years. How are those upgrades going? What would have two years of a new contract as F/O than the new rates as captain been compared to those same two years at current rates plus another delay of say 1-2-3 more years of LOA93?\

At this point it is costing us all money

Now compare that number to the number of west F/O’s that would never check out as captain using DOH.

It is always about the money. Why is it so important to check out as captain????? For the money right? So if you are so junior that under Nicolau you would never check out as captain that puts you far away from captain. If under separate ops you are still going to have to wait for the attrition of several years before you upgrade under LOA 93 payrates. Where is the money under LOA 93, in the left seat.

BTW the Nicolau list is a 2 to 1 ratio with two east upgrading for every 1 west pilots. Also most of the opening will be in the east. There will be a lot of west F/O’s not wanting to commute to the east. So it will be closer to 2.5 to 1 upgrade.

So it is about the money or are you saying that it is your ego that needs to be in the left seat?

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Alas (for you anyway,) the arbitrator was selected months ago, and it is not Nicolau.

I doubt Nicolau will be found on the "approved" list for use with USAPA. And, if by chance he was, he would be the first struck by USAPA during the selection process.

Well, phooey then. It was a fun thought while it lasted........

They still may need extra manning over there at the S-P-H when its all said and done, though.

 

[Piedmont1984]

oscar, nic and clear

I already am in the left seat and have been there for over 22 years at this company.

What separates me on LOA93 and you in the west are a few extra trips a year and some crew meals worth, nothing to blow your horn about.

Our attrition kicks in again in 2 to 3 years. If I were an F/O, and my choice was between a marginally better contract with the NIC, which in all probability will not be ready to vote on for 1 or 2 years - or upgrade due to attrition (our own attrition) - I know how I would decide.

And that's exactly what every single F/O I have flown with has said to me.

 

[88 B.T.D.]

QUOTE
The NIC makes it impossible for a large block of our F/O's to ever check out as captain.

Clear" Could you give us a number backed up with data? I have heard this for a long time but no one can prove that statement."

The answer is- there is no way to know. If management grows the airline then many more will upgrade before retirement. If they shrink and merge again probably not. United has 99 hires on the street right now, American 01. Merge with them guess who gets called back from furlough first?

If 9-11 hadn't happened US and HP would both look differently. If we have a few more intelligence failures this year who knows? Force Majure/Bankruptcy again?

To the people (large block?) who were actively flying US Air as 170 Captains when Nic was RELEASED, by signing a joint contract they will never see upgrade again until it is first offered to every HP FO (young and old).

 

[nic4us]

I am a 1988 hire and am an international captain bidding about 50% in my category. What does a 1988 hire from the East hold, and what where they holding at the time of the merger? According to your theory, I should be next to that other guy on a merged seniority list.

If you want to make captain, then your best hope is to help your company get healthy.

Oscarjazz,

Thanks for posting. I appreciate hearing from OAL pilots. You are not going to get a rational explanation or answere from the east posters. Anyone who does not see things their way is simply wrong in their mind. Nicolau is senile, Wake is biased etc. So I will answere your question.

An east 1988 hire held a place in their states unemployment line, and yes according to usapa, that furloughee should be senior to you, along with a couple hundred other furloughees and all of their active pilots, regardless of their position, their relative seniority or their inferior LOS. No, you should not be next to that guy, according to usapa you should be below that guy on a merged list.

Why go to all the trouble of contibuting to a healthy company, when it is so much easier to just steal a future from you.

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

oscar, nic and clear

I already am in the left seat and have been there for over 22 years at this company.

What separates me on LOA93 and you in the west are a few extra trips a year and some crew meals worth, nothing to blow your horn about.

Our attrition kicks in again in 2 to 3 years. If I were an F/O, and my choice was between a marginally better contract with the NIC, which in all probability will not be ready to vote on for 1 or 2 years - or upgrade due to attrition (our own attrition) - I know how I would decide.

And that's exactly what every single F/O I have flown with has said to me.

Congrats to having yours and flaunting it. We have those on the west too.

As for the upgrades we have many that have by passed the left seat for schedule/lifestyle and felt an extra trip will cover the $$ short fall.

I believe Mr Gold Standard himself has by passed the left seat hasn't he?? Bradford won't even live by his own word. I would have thought he would have got while the getting was there.

Sure, let's go DOH (with your special protections) so I can lose everything I bought to this mess and some guy who brought nothing but a number on a list can slide effortlessly into my seat. I'm all over that.

This was all discussed before ad nausium but I guess it just doesn't mean much to you. Both sides were told to back off their respective positions, I believe (my bad if I'm wrong here) that the west was ready to talk again but to quote Katz "We are happy with our position".

Let's actually get a contract to vote on and see what happens. Did we really request a mediator or were we just blowing smoke for a press release??