US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[EastUS]

Here is the East's biggest mistake. Not realizing like the the rest of the world that date of hire doesn't work for pilot integrations because that is not how pilots get paid.

This is about money. Money, money, money. That is not a principle.

Disregarding the banal drivel in between......I find the opening and closing statements to be collectively amusing

For me..It's an issue that's pretty simple = Never having to live knowing I sold out any coworker's, properly worked for and achieved longevity/seniority to some kids that were literally in grade school when the former commenced professional flying careers. Perhaps the idea that people's time and effort actually should matter, and be at least slightly respected, is not a "principle" to you..but..it works for me.

I'll leave you back to your ongoing support of the "Integrity Matters" west "Righteous Cause" now......

 

[ClueByFour]

Indeed sir. It's perhaps worth noting that our very Nation was born from thoughts along those very same lines........

The Founding Fathers would have tossed USAPA into Boston Harbor, and made reneging on binding arbitration an intolerable act. Don't demean the history of this country by comparing a bunch of overtestosteroned bullies-in-number to the Founders.

 

[Flippin43]

I am pretty sure you are wrong.

flypg,

I think he's right.

The east Captains I talk to say the same. You can bully guys into signing cards etc. You can also make it Politically Incorrect to say anything that could be construed as throwing your F/O's under the bus.

But you cannot control what senior east people say when you are not looking or are there with them, like VOTING.

This has been the process at AAA for years right.


Flip

 

[EastUS]

The Founding Fathers would have tossed USAPA into Boston Harbor, and made reneging on binding arbitration an intolerable act. Don't demean the history of this country by comparing a bunch of overtestosteroned bullies-in-number to the Founders.

"..and made reneging on binding arbitration an intolerable act."??? You've certainly posted a fine jest there. Let me see if I have this right? = The very same men who felt it needed to rise up in armed and bloody revolt against their lawful King/masters in England, and did so at fullest peril to their property and the very lives of themselves and their families...would have rushed to make "reneging on binding arbitration an intolerable act" ???

Don't demean the history of our great nation by even pretending you know anything about the character of our formers.....or what they'd think about any given subject.....You certainly ain't no John Adams/Thomas Jefferson/George Washington/Benjamin Franklin/etc...neither am I.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

The Founding Fathers would have tossed USAPA into Boston Harbor, and made reneging on binding arbitration an intolerable act. Don't demean the history of this country by comparing a bunch of overtestosteroned bullies-in-number to the Founders.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

The Founding Fathers would have tossed USAPA into Boston Harbor, and made reneging on binding arbitration an intolerable act. Don't demean the history of this country by comparing a bunch of overtestosteroned bullies-in-number to the Founders.

Amen bruddah!

The east wants nothing more than everyone to live up to agreements...except themselves.

Situational ethics without any ability to see past their greed.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

It would be great if George Nicolau was selected as the arbitrator for the east LOA 93 scrum. They'd have to beef up staffing on the suicide hotlines out east......LOL.

 

[End of USAPA]

Situational ethics, blah blah blah.
We have the keys you so badly want.
We have the unity you so badly lack.
We have the vote you will never get.

I am a poet.
You are not.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Here is the East's biggest mistake. Not realizing like the the rest of the world that date of hire doesn't work for pilot integrations because that is not how pilots get paid. Arbitrator after arbitrator has ruled on that in the last 20 years and yet you seemed surprised when it happened to you. Well, it actually happened to you before in the Trump Shuttle case, but that was okay because it was better for you then.

Here is the problem with your integrity argument. This discussion is about money. You may talk about your valued years of service, but when you describe the effects of the Nicolau list on your career it is all in terms of money. There are many principled stands to take, but "I want more money" or "I deserve more money because I feel sorry for myself" are not principles. Don't get me wrong, I want more money too, but I don't pretend that it is some moral principle, I just want more money.

When you talk about hits from the Nicolau award, it is all in the context of hits from some imagined career that you all had coming up. From 2005 onward, there is not one pilot that can accurately predict what would have happened at the two carriers absent the merger. You can come up with a self serving prediction about who would prosper and who would not, but it is all baloney.

That is why arbitrators generally stitch pilot lists together based on a ratio method, because there is no other way to do it. In your case, they made a concession to demographics by putting the wide body first officer slots at the top of the list, they should have been below all captains. In our case (DL/NW) they did this pullout and plug in system where they took out the 274 oldest pilots and built the list as if they had already retired. They then reinserted them into the list. They did not use date of hire in any fashion.

So while you think you are "standing up for your guys" you are in fact trying to transfer money from one set of pilots to another. You think you have some justification for doing that, but virtually no one else agrees with you. Guess what, they are all your guys. You have one list one airline and the sooner you all get that pounded into your head the better off you will be.

So please, if you can somehow convince yourself it is okay to transfer money from one set of your pilots to another, then fine, but please don't pretend this is some moral crusade you are on. This is about money. Money, money, money. That is not a principle.

Every merger is unique. I have gone through your merged list. With a few exeptions, the vast majority of pilots on your list ended up being just a few years within your counterpart's DOH. So the ratio formulation in the case of DAL/NWA worked for you.

I agree with your take on career expectations. I just wish someone would have told Nicolau. He bought the flawed argument that career expectations and financial condition trump all other considerations. Hard earned and easy to measure length of service was not even on his radar screen.

I did not pursue an airline career in order to be a permanent F/O. The NIC makes it impossible for a large block of our F/O's to ever check out as captain.

Finally, I have been on LOA93 payrates and a bankruptcy contract for several years now. Looking at the possibility of several more, lasting perhaps right up to my mandatory retirement. So you can call me stupid - but don't call me greedy for money.

 

[End of USAPA]

Mergers are not unique- DOH is what every other work group goes by so why is it any different with pilots? I will tell you why-- GREED! Pure and simple, step on your fellow man to get to the top.
You can debate DOH and Nicolau all you want on here, bottom line is the west will NEVER see a joint contract with Nicolau. WE HAVE THE NUMBERS! An easy no vote for sure and the east is totally united!
Its been five years so far and we are still two appeals and multiple negotiation sessions for even one contract proposal to be presented. GET IT WEST???

So, all you can bluster all you want and pontificate about this merger and that merger, but guess what: each merger has its own unique parts and in this case it is still joint ratification of the contract. Aint gonna happen with Nicolau. Get used to that idea!!!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Here is the East's biggest mistake. Not realizing like the the rest of the world that date of hire doesn't work for pilot integrations because that is not how pilots get paid. Arbitrator after arbitrator has ruled on that in the last 20 years and yet you seemed surprised when it happened to you. Well, it actually happened to you before in the Trump Shuttle case, but that was okay because it was better for you then.

Here is the problem with your integrity argument. This discussion is about money. You may talk about your valued years of service, but when you describe the effects of the Nicolau list on your career it is all in terms of money. There are many principled stands to take, but "I want more money" or "I deserve more money because I feel sorry for myself" are not principles. Don't get me wrong, I want more money too, but I don't pretend that it is some moral principle, I just want more money.

When you talk about hits from the Nicolau award, it is all in the context of hits from some imagined career that you all had coming up. From 2005 onward, there is not one pilot that can accurately predict what would have happened at the two carriers absent the merger. You can come up with a self serving prediction about who would prosper and who would not, but it is all baloney.

That is why arbitrators generally stitch pilot lists together based on a ratio method, because there is no other way to do it. In your case, they made a concession to demographics by putting the wide body first officer slots at the top of the list, they should have been below all captains. In our case (DL/NW) they did this pullout and plug in system where they took out the 274 oldest pilots and built the list as if they had already retired. They then reinserted them into the list. They did not use date of hire in any fashion.

So while you think you are "standing up for your guys" you are in fact trying to transfer money from one set of pilots to another. You think you have some justification for doing that, but virtually no one else agrees with you. Guess what, they are all your guys. You have one list one airline and the sooner you all get that pounded into your head the better off you will be.

So please, if you can somehow convince yourself it is okay to transfer money from one set of your pilots to another, then fine, but please don't pretend this is some moral crusade you are on. This is about money. Money, money, money. That is not a principle.

I will be at the union BPR meeting tommorrow in CLT just in case any of you west pilots want to punch me in the nose. I'll be advocating for employment at will and I will be advocating forming that "corporation" you all so love.

Here is the key difference between East and West. You want the money. I want the time served. Its as simple as that. Your "history" of arbitrations is wrong. I have the facts and the data to prove it. As long as I work at this airloine I will make sure all west pilots know me and hate me for my position. I will be giving the BPR an earful tommorrow and I hope you'll hear Brice and Sue and "what's his name" from the soon to be closed LAS.

Also, say goodbye to many of your "brethren" over at Mesa. Or should I say maybe THOSE guys can fly YOUR jets. Their "captain qualified" too!

Our industry is going through FUNDAMENTAL changes and I intend to change with it. You can either lead (theres a laugh because I wouldn't follow a west pilot even if you were leading me to water in the desert), follow (I'd just as soon kick you off the property) or get the heck out of the way...the best choice.

Let me make ONE thing clear....west pilots are in an extremely perilous position and I look forward to more hits the coming years for you. See you in CLT.

 

[flypg]

Here is the East's biggest mistake. Not realizing like the the rest of the world that date of hire doesn't work for pilot integrations because that is not how pilots get paid.


Ok then. There you have it ! And you are a pilot ?

 

[oscarjazz]

Every merger is unique. I have gone through your merged list. With a few exeptions, the vast majority of pilots on your list ended up being just a few years within your counterpart's DOH. So the ratio formulation in the case of DAL/NWA worked for you.

I agree with your take on career expectations. I just wish someone would have told Nicolau. He bought the flawed argument that career expectations and financial condition trump all other considerations. Hard earned and easy to measure length of service was not even on his radar screen.

I did not pursue an airline career in order to be a permanent F/O. The NIC makes it impossible for a large block of our F/O's to ever check out as captain.

Finally, I have been on LOA93 payrates and a bankruptcy contract for several years now. Looking at the possibility of several more, lasting perhaps right up to my mandatory retirement. So you can call me stupid - but don't call me greedy for money.

Here is the conundrum. What expectation did you have of making Captain at AAA at any time? What is that expectation based on?

While length of service is easy to measure, so is relative seniority. Your flight pay is based much more on relative seniority than on length of service. How much does a five year A-330 captain make on your pay scale (I understand that you don't have any five year captains)? Now how much does a 25 year Airbus F/O make? Your own pay scale recognizes that relative seniority is more important than length of service.

I am a 1988 hire and am an international captain bidding about 50% in my category. What does a 1988 hire from the East hold, and what where they holding at the time of the merger? According to your theory, I should be next to that other guy on a merged seniority list.

While the demographics at DL/NW were less skewed than the AWA/AAA merger the reasons behind that skewing were absolutely integral to the Nicolau award. If you are concerned about not making captain then your merger committee should have addressed that with some fences. Instead, the date of hire solution was such a giant bludgeon for a small problem that your committee lost any input into the process. The arbitrator begged them to come up with another solution but no deal. Now you complain that your issues weren't addressed. That is not the arbitrator's failure, that is your failure.

For an East pilot to complain about LOA 93 wages is quite amusing. You guys had an opportunity to get a better contract when the award came out and your company was making money. Instead, you embarked on this fool's errand to redo the seniority list. In the process you have crippled your company and then complain about how they can't pay you any more. Still your strategy is to wait on yet one more empty promise of better times ahead. Each time you guys get frustrated in your attempt to redo you seniority list, you have one more promise of hope just up ahead. Don't you guys ever feel just a little bit played by these USAPA guys? Always its "wait for a few months, then things will get better, trust me." When do they have to deliver anything?

If you want to make captain, then your best hope is to help your company get healthy. Accept the list, sign a joint contract, allow them to realize the synergies from the merger. In a joint contract, you would get pay parity and probably not much more. Your company is on the bleeding edge of failure right now and you can't expect giant raises. A smart move would be to try to get future pay raises based on company performance and/or a robust profit sharing. At some point a the company will grow and then that rising tide lifts all boats.

...or you can wait for "things are going to get better real soon now." When does "real soon now" end?

 

[oscarjazz]

Here is the East's biggest mistake. Not realizing like the the rest of the world that date of hire doesn't work for pilot integrations because that is not how pilots get paid.


Ok then. There you have it ! And you are a pilot ?

Yep, just went through the DL/NW merger, any other questions?

 

[flypg]

flypg,

I think he's right.

The east Captains I talk to say the same. You can bully guys into signing cards etc. You can also make it Politically Incorrect to say anything that could be construed as throwing your F/O's under the bus.

But you cannot control what senior east people say when you are not looking or are there with them, like VOTING.

This has been the process at AAA for years right.


Flip

It very well may have been. However, in less than 36 months 800 or so will be gone. IF you can get a Jetblue or SWA contract in the meantime then perhaps some would sell out. If not, no money, no contract, no vote and no NIC.