US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[Piedmont1984]

Let me respectfully refresh your memory.

LOA 84 is a POST-bankruptcy side letter. It preceded the second bankruptcy, but it was signed in December, 2002, which was 3 months after the Chapter 11 filing.

The big pay hit was the Restructuring Agreement, which preceded bankruptcy one by about two months. I believe the company told us that if we signed on to it, we could avoid bankruptcy. Nothing has changed. They still lie through their teeth with every word they utter say.

Thanks for the correction.

 

[Piedmont1984]

So all of that goes against you, then what are you going to do?

Will cross that bridge..... similar to the winding watch philosophy. But I stated earlier what I am not going to do.

 

[flypg]

So all of that goes against you, then what are you going to do?

Easy. Vote NO if it means NIC.

 

[HPDriver]

Will cross that bridge..... similar to the winding watch philosophy. But I stated earlier what I am not going to do.

That bridge is getting pretty close.

 

[HPDriver]

Easy. Vote NO if it means NIC.

Brilliant.

 

[nycbusdriver]

That bridge is getting pretty close.

So?

 

[ableoneable]

With any luck at all the east will look like they are going to win their "snapback" grievance.

I am sure the company will decide that imposing the America West contract on the east and instituting the arbitrated seniority list is preferable to paying LOA84 payrates. Can't wait. Best of luck on the case.

 

[flypg]

Brilliant.

Maybe. But it works.

 

[HPDriver]

Maybe. But it works.

Sure it does - if you don't mind LOA93.

 

[HPDriver]

So?

And that's why you guys are where you are.

You don't look past the length of your arm.

 

[flypg]

Sure it does - if you don't mind LOA93.

I dont. The worst of LOA 93 is better than the best of NIC

 

[HPDriver]

I dont. The worst of LOA 93 is better than the best of NIC

I'm pretty sure that most of your fellow east pilots will disagree.

 

[flypg]

I'm pretty sure that most of your fellow east pilots will disagree.

I am pretty sure you are wrong.

 

[oscarjazz]

I acknowledge all the mistakes the east has made. We have often been our own worst enemy. Either actively or passively, we allowed ALPA's change to merger policy go unchallenged. We waited for the mother of all litmus tests to take place before we reacted.

To me, integrity means standing by your fellow airmen and refusing to submit to injustice - and doing so because it is right, even it it is illegal.

Here is the East's biggest mistake. Not realizing like the the rest of the world that date of hire doesn't work for pilot integrations because that is not how pilots get paid. Arbitrator after arbitrator has ruled on that in the last 20 years and yet you seemed surprised when it happened to you. Well, it actually happened to you before in the Trump Shuttle case, but that was okay because it was better for you then.

Here is the problem with your integrity argument. This discussion is about money. You may talk about your valued years of service, but when you describe the effects of the Nicolau list on your career it is all in terms of money. There are many principled stands to take, but "I want more money" or "I deserve more money because I feel sorry for myself" are not principles. Don't get me wrong, I want more money too, but I don't pretend that it is some moral principle, I just want more money.

When you talk about hits from the Nicolau award, it is all in the context of hits from some imagined career that you all had coming up. From 2005 onward, there is not one pilot that can accurately predict what would have happened at the two carriers absent the merger. You can come up with a self serving prediction about who would prosper and who would not, but it is all baloney.

That is why arbitrators generally stitch pilot lists together based on a ratio method, because there is no other way to do it. In your case, they made a concession to demographics by putting the wide body first officer slots at the top of the list, they should have been below all captains. In our case (DL/NW) they did this pullout and plug in system where they took out the 274 oldest pilots and built the list as if they had already retired. They then reinserted them into the list. They did not use date of hire in any fashion.

So while you think you are "standing up for your guys" you are in fact trying to transfer money from one set of pilots to another. You think you have some justification for doing that, but virtually no one else agrees with you. Guess what, they are all your guys. You have one list one airline and the sooner you all get that pounded into your head the better off you will be.

So please, if you can somehow convince yourself it is okay to transfer money from one set of your pilots to another, then fine, but please don't pretend this is some moral crusade you are on. This is about money. Money, money, money. That is not a principle.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Here is the East's biggest mistake. Not realizing like the the rest of the world that date of hire doesn't work for pilot integrations because that is not how pilots get paid. Arbitrator after arbitrator has ruled on that in the last 20 years and yet you seemed surprised when it happened to you. Well, it actually happened to you before in the Trump Shuttle case, but that was okay because it was better for you then.

Here is the problem with your integrity argument. This discussion is about money. You may talk about your valued years of service, but when you describe the effects of the Nicolau list on your career it is all in terms of money. There are many principled stands to take, but "I want more money" or "I deserve more money because I feel sorry for myself" are not principles. Don't get me wrong, I want more money too, but I don't pretend that it is some moral principle, I just want more money.

When you talk about hits from the Nicolau award, it is all in the context of hits from some imagined career that you all had coming up. From 2005 onward, there is not one pilot that can accurately predict what would have happened at the two carriers absent the merger. You can come up with a self serving prediction about who would prosper and who would not, but it is all baloney.

That is why arbitrators generally stitch pilot lists together based on a ratio method, because there is no other way to do it. In your case, they made a concession to demographics by putting the wide body first officer slots at the top of the list, they should have been below all captains. In our case (DL/NW) they did this pullout and plug in system where they took out the 274 oldest pilots and built the list as if they had already retired. They then reinserted them into the list. They did not use date of hire in any fashion.

So while you think you are "standing up for your guys" you are in fact trying to transfer money from one set of pilots to another. You think you have some justification for doing that, but virtually no one else agrees with you. Guess what, they are all your guys. You have one list one airline and the sooner you all get that pounded into your head the better off you will be.

So please, if you can somehow convince yourself it is okay to transfer money from one set of your pilots to another, then fine, but please don't pretend this is some moral crusade you are on. This is about money. Money, money, money. That is not a principle.

Oscar,
With all due respect here I have to at least add something if not outright disagree... The east (from what I have seen on the "board" here and the actions taken in their leadership) have a serious character flaw wherein they do truly place an inordinate amount of value on one's "position." It's as if they are somehow lesser human beings if they are not Captain. Seriously these guys address themselves as "Senior International Widebody Captain!" There is a hierarchy here that starts with that label and continues on down the list. You and I however know that one attains that title merely by being hired by the right place at the right time and a whole lotta luck that your career keeps chuggin' along!!! Anyway I too used to think that money and benefits would help the Nic issues. We could be very creative with a contract. However I have been since convinced otherwise. The legal system will square this away if ever.

BTW I know things aren't super rosy over there but congrats nonetheless on your pay increase and successful merger...