US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[cleardirect]

How many pilots do you know called in sick? What about those CHAOS stickers in the jetway? Was this all USAPA bluster??? Fact of fiction? Is that what you are saying? Are you knees a little weak? Hmmm. I think it was 100% management's fault (staffing). I can see the weakness in your eyes...

Really! Interesting! Was there a big snow that shut down the airports for hundreds of miles like right before Christmas? Did the ATC computers fail and ground just our airline, starting coincidentally on Jan 1 the same day the little count down clock strike midnight or the exact same day 01-01-10 Cash or Chaos stick predicted?

So the operations has been running along just fine but it just happens to fall apart at that very moment because it is managements fault. So when the operation gets back to running right with the same level of staffing how do you explain that?

Nope I see the backpedaling from individuals and an organization that missed the train barreling down the tracks at them.

Just curious what do you think the arbitrator is going to think about usapa and the east pilots that stranded hundreds of PAX over the holiday because they wanted a raise and would not wit 30 days to be heard by the arbitrator. If it is so certain that you guys are going to win and receive back pay why not wait? My guess is that clock and those stickers become evidence during that hearing.

A 300 million extra expense plus cost the company another 100 million in inconvenienced PAX accommodations. Ouch is that a bullet in your foot?

 

[Black Swan]

Really! Interesting! Was there a big snow that shut down the airports for hundreds of miles like right before Christmas? Did the ATC computers fail and ground just our airline, starting coincidentally on Jan 1 the same day the little count down clock strike midnight or the exact same day 01-01-10 Cash or Chaos stick predicted?

So the operations has been running along just fine but it just happens to fall apart at that very moment because it is managements fault. So when the operation gets back to running right with the same level of staffing how do you explain that?

Nope I see the backpedaling from individuals and an organization that missed the train barreling down the tracks at them.

Just curious what do you think the arbitrator is going to think about usapa and the east pilots that stranded hundreds of PAX over the holiday because they wanted a raise and would not wit 30 days to be heard by the arbitrator. If it is so certain that you guys are going to win and receive back pay why not wait? My guess is that clock and those stickers become evidence during that hearing.

A 300 million extra expense plus cost the company another 100 million in inconvenienced PAX accommodations. Ouch is that a bullet in your foot?

I guess it was an Airbus conspiracy, because that machine is seriously short crews now. Remember, Team Tempe biased the vacation awards to give most guys vacation Jan, Feb. Why? I really don't know. So they have created their own shortage. I know many pilots who were asked to change their vacation via phone calls in late Dec. so if anyone let the brakes off the so called train, it was the planning side. They have been subbing segments from the 190 and 73 for over a month. It is just getting started. You can try and make this something other than what it actually is. Wait and see what comes out. That bullet in the foot might actually turn out to be a foot in the mouth........

 

[nic4us]

Exactly, especially when PHX closes. There is your windfall as well as each and every East FO getting the shaft. You Westies never own up top the fact that NIC lets you cash in NOW and for years after we are LONG GONE..............Thanks St. NIC......That is why ................here it comes......wait for it......

PS, just looked at an earlier post about losing numbers.....try a different angle.....an East October 84 hire ...for instance a guy named Chalman...his number is 1131 pre nic and 1630 post NIC a "loss" of 500 numbers.......but where is the guy hired just after Challman OUT WEST...in other words the guy hired in the WEST class right after Challmal is CROMWELL Number 781 on the NIC. He was hired after Challman and is over 50% closer to the number 1 spot. When PHX closes his RELATIVE position will be GOLDEN out East. You guys are dreaming if you think this will work.

Lets go over this again....West guy hired right after East guy. West guy number 781...East guy number....1630.

Great example of why you are so wrong! about everything I have quoted here, For three reasons.

1. First, do you mean K. Cromwell number 71 on the West list, who is actually #731 on the Nic, and lost 660 numbers to Chalmans 500. Who also would have retired #4, but had 67 east pilots that are younger than him placed ahead of him ( he is currently 55) and will now retire as number 71, the exact same number he already attained prior to the merger, but has to go 10 more years just to get back to the number where he started, and no where near the number he would have reached.

2. Chalman, who is 5 years younger than Cromwell, who as you say was 1131 and now 1630, only had 62 West pilots younger than him placed in front of him, would have never reached the seniority Cromwell has enjoyed for years, will still reach to within a very small percentage the seniority he would have attained, and on a % basis, passes the seniority he could have ever hoped to obtain without the Nic.

3. You keep looking at it as though Cromwell was added to the east list, he was not. He is 50% closer to the number one spot, because he used to be 1000% closer to the number 1 spot, and he will never reach as high a seniority as he would have had absent the combining of the lists.

Lets go over this again......West guy hired right after east guy, was very senior and lost his seniority.....East guy with mediocre seniority immediately gains in relative seniority and as time passes, moves to a relative position higher than he would have ever held.

Again, two list were combined. The West was not added to the east list, and it is absolutely myopic to look at it that way, or make the comparisons that you do. Cromwell was hired after Chalman, but not at the same company. Cromwell had far greater seniority (71/1884) than Chalman (1131/2947) and in the Nic Chalman fairs much better than Cromwell. Your arguing that Cromwell should go from 71 out of 1884 to number 1631 and have another 600 or so younger east pilot placed ahead of him is ludicrous.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Your vote is canceled out. That's all you've got. Trust those captains to turn down cash after the 9th affirms?

I wouldn't. I know how it operates over there.

Well...yes and no.

Admittedly, there are a lot of senior captains who will "go for the gold at the first opportunity." I doubt the west pilot group is any different. But let's analyze just exactly what "go for the gold at the first opportunity" means.

"Go for the gold." What gold? The Kirby offer of several years ago (still on the table, supposedly) is woefully inadequate, and the company does not seem to be forthcoming in negotiations with anything that might be construed as "golden." It will take some mighty BIG improvements in pay and working conditions for the seniors to vote yes. For the 757, 767 and 330 captains, there is basically NO incentive to sign on to the Kirby proposal. They are already paid more than the west, and a 3% raise after 5 years of LOA 93 is laughable. As for the 737 and 320 captains, they are in the league of the Nicolau-harmed. You will not see many vote even to come up to west +3% because it is simply detrimental to their long-term needs.

"At the first opportunity." The company is dragging their feet on negotiations. The NAC as made themselves available at almost any time to sit at the table, but the company schedules very few sessions. There is a lot of work to be done, and it's the company that seems to be a bit "casual" about getting anything done. So, the first opportunity (even if there finally was a meaningful pay raise) is likely at least 2 years down the road. Probably more. Unless the company suddenly acquires a conscience (unlikely) and begins to bargain promptly and in good faith. Don't hold your breath.

So, while I agree that there are some senior captains on the east who would vote to ratify a really great contract, there is nothing indicative that such a thing exists now or will in the near future.

 

[Black Swan]

Well...yes and no.

Admittedly, there are a lot of senior captains who will "go for the gold at the first opportunity." I doubt the west pilot group is any different. But let's analyze just exactly what "go for the gold at the first opportunity" means.

"Go for the gold." What gold? The Kirby offer of several years ago (still on the table, supposedly) is woefully inadequate, and the company does not seem to be forthcoming in negotiations with anything that might be construed as "golden." It will take some mighty BIG improvements in pay and working conditions for the seniors to vote yes. For the 757, 767 and 330 captains, there is basically NO incentive to sign on to the Kirby proposal. They are already paid more than the west, and a 3% raise after 5 years of LOA 93 is laughable. As for the 737 and 320 captains, they are in the league of the Nicolau-harmed. You will not see many vote even to come up to west +3% because it is simply detrimental to their long-term needs.

"At the first opportunity." The company is dragging their feet on negotiations. The NAC as made themselves available at almost any time to sit at the table, but the company schedules very few sessions. There is a lot of work to be done, and it's the company that seems to be a bit "casual" about getting anything done. So, the first opportunity (even if there finally was a meaningful pay raise) is likely at least 2 years down the road. Probably more. Unless the company suddenly acquires a conscience (unlikely) and begins to bargain promptly and in good faith. Don't hold your breath.

So, while I agree that there are some senior captains on the east who would vote to ratify a really great contract, there is nothing indicative that such a thing exists now or will in the near future.

You are right NYC. There really is no incentive for the company to get a deal. They have the East middle group down at the rate they want, and they don't want to give the West any cash either. The only ones that get the $$$ are the management side. It is that simple. These guys will only give anybody a deal when it suits them. That time is not now.

 

[Tiger 1050]

I guess it was an Airbus conspiracy, because that machine is seriously short crews now. Remember, Team Tempe biased the vacation awards to give most guys vacation Jan, Feb. Why? I really don't know. So they have created their own shortage. I know many pilots who were asked to change their vacation via phone calls in late Dec. so if anyone let the brakes off the so called train, it was the planning side. They have been subbing segments from the 190 and 73 for over a month. It is just getting started. You can try and make this something other than what it actually is. Wait and see what comes out. That bullet in the foot might actually turn out to be a foot in the mouth........

Here is the crux of the situation for the Usapians. If you acted (not so covertly I might add. Stupid!) you can easily see problems both for the individual and the union. The clock counting down the "Cash or Chaos" campaign and the bragging on this internet board was classic though! I liked it! If this was not USAPA and its constituents then you are essentially left with a toothless tiger further eroding any imagination that USAPA has any ability to wield its influence on the company. Hmmm. What to do Mr. Cleary? What to do?

 

[skyflyr69]

As well as access to the credit market.

US was a dead airline. HP was not.

When is everyone going to get over the who what when where to whom etc? We need a major boost in the contract. 176.00 at JB is the FLOOR for AB as far as I'm concerned. You can throw that Kirby proposal in the Hudson.

As long as we let the company dictate JNC meetings we are toast. You know what we need to do.

 

[Black Swan]

Here is the crux of the situation for the Usapians. If you acted (not so covertly I might add. Stupid!) you can easily see problems both for the individual and the union. The clock counting down the "Cash or Chaos" campaign and the bragging on this internet board was classic though! I liked it! If this was not USAPA and its constituents then you are essentially left with a toothless tiger further eroding any imagination that USAPA has any ability to wield its influence on the company. Hmmm. What to do Mr. Cleary? What to do?

Kind of like the Nic being on Dougs' desk, but you can't make him sign it?

 

[cubfan]

You are right NYC. There really is no incentive for the company to get a deal. They have the East middle group down at the rate they want, and they don't want to give the West any cash either. The only ones that get the $$$ are the management side. It is that simple. These guys will only give anybody a deal when it suits them. That time is not now.

You are correct, if we loose on full restoration of loa pay, but win on step increases all paid in full your looking at about 12%. We get pretty close to the Kirby offer with no negotiations, bad for them.

 

[cleardirect]

Kind of like the Nic being on Dougs' desk, but you can't make him sign it?

:huh: Doug Parker did sign it. He accepted it and sent everyone a letter telling us he accepted it or signed it.

BTW it is on Al's desk along with the other completed sections.

 

[cleardirect]

Well...yes and no.

Admittedly, there are a lot of senior captains who will "go for the gold at the first opportunity." I doubt the west pilot group is any different. But let's analyze just exactly what "go for the gold at the first opportunity" means.

"Go for the gold." What gold? The Kirby offer of several years ago (still on the table, supposedly) is woefully inadequate, and the company does not seem to be forthcoming in negotiations with anything that might be construed as "golden." It will take some mighty BIG improvements in pay and working conditions for the seniors to vote yes. For the 757, 767 and 330 captains, there is basically NO incentive to sign on to the Kirby proposal. They are already paid more than the west, and a 3% raise after 5 years of LOA 93 is laughable. As for the 737 and 320 captains, they are in the league of the Nicolau-harmed. You will not see many vote even to come up to west +3% because it is simply detrimental to their long-term needs.

"At the first opportunity." The company is dragging their feet on negotiations. The NAC as made themselves available at almost any time to sit at the table, but the company schedules very few sessions. There is a lot of work to be done, and it's the company that seems to be a bit "casual" about getting anything done. So, the first opportunity (even if there finally was a meaningful pay raise) is likely at least 2 years down the road. Probably more. Unless the company suddenly acquires a conscience (unlikely) and begins to bargain promptly and in good faith. Don't hold your breath.

So, while I agree that there are some senior captains on the east who would vote to ratify a really great contract, there is nothing indicative that such a thing exists now or will in the near future.

Presidents update:

In addition, we remained mired in bankruptcy-era contracts that, even in the face of the union’s dedication to improve those conditions, were met with Management’s acknowledgement that a new agreement would not precede a resolution to the litigation. All Americans, particularly airline pilots, and most specifically US Airways pilots, have been hit hard by a difficult economy. Although we are fighting a strong headwind, our determination remains intact, and I believe we are in the process of reaching our goals.

Management has clearly stated that there will not be an agreement until the litigation is settled.

Let me get this straight. The union is willing to meet as often as possible. But the president of USAPA tells us that we will not get a contract until the litigation is settled. The same litigation that USAPA has delayed by appealing the DFR decision. The same litigation that may be further delayed if USAPA decided to push this all the way to the Supreme (confident) Court.

Just what would be accomplished other than FPL for the NAC by wasting time negotiating constantly with the company if we can not move forward until the litigation is finished? Do you enjoy wasting time and money on pointless efforts?

No the delay is not the companies making it is the USAPA leadership and the choices they make to appease the vocal VNIIMN minority. USAPA could meet with the company 20 days of the month and we would not be any closer to a contract. So complaining that that company will not meet is a red herring. They understand wasting time and money, to no end why doesn’t this union leadership? Beside Cleary tells us the economy is bad, why negotiate in a bad economy? You get nowhere.

 

[767intl]

Really! Interesting! Was there a big snow that shut down the airports for hundreds of miles like right before Christmas? Did the ATC computers fail and ground just our airline, starting coincidentally on Jan 1 the same day the little count down clock strike midnight or the exact same day 01-01-10 Cash or Chaos stick predicted?

I've been reading all this West stuff for over two years now. Being right in the middle of it in PHL, what happened was obvious. MX, WX, parts, crew shortage, all hitting at once. Crews out on the road up to 7 days with the company trying to call a long delay a day off. Yeah, that happened. If the company thinks this is some kind of job action, they'd already be in court trying to get a restraining order.

Just curious what do you think the arbitrator is going to think about usapa and the east pilots that stranded hundreds of PAX over the holiday because they wanted a raise and would not wit 30 days to be heard by the arbitrator. If it is so certain that you guys are going to win and receive back pay why not wait? My guess is that clock and those stickers become evidence during that hearing.

Two years of reading the same old attempts to connect random dots. Operations paid it forward after the first snow storm and never could catch up. Crews were right up against FAR and contract limits (I know, they're just about the same, aren't they?). We had a CX last week because MX couldn't come up with the parts. True to form, the company gave the PAX no heads up even though they knew an hour prior to departure. They slow-played the delay for five hours before CXing the flight. No telling how much that fiasco cost. An early decision could have gotten PAX on other LCC flights or other airlines to their destinations. But no, we packed them all off to hotels.

Evidence during what hearing? Now you're dreaming up some dot-connecting with an arbitrator. First, if the company thinks there's a job action out there, it won't be an arbitrator hearing it. It'll be a Federal Judge. Second, no arbitrator is going to go outside the case he's supposed to arbitrate.

A 300 million extra expense plus cost the company another 100 million in inconvenienced PAX accommodations. Ouch is that a bullet in your foot?

$100M in PAX accomodations? That's how much last weekend cost them? LCC doesn't hit that in a year. $300M in extra expenses? Where did that come from? Where does any of this come from? With no-stop attacks on everything USAPA does or doesn't do. Bare mention of some significant arbitration wins. I can see why the two groups will never get together.

One thing you West guys and your East ALPA-phile buddies seem to miss in the entire EVP mess is that Dave didn't finish his job. He had over a year to get the contract office staff on as employees. He failed. Whether you like Mike Cleary or not, he is our elected president. You can only have one. Throughout the entire DC drama, Mike kept his mouth shut and tried to deal with the guy. In the end, it was DC who resigned in a snit. Same DC, same drama that he played out when over at ALPA. Anyone doubting the BPR's resolve to stand firm with our elected leadership needs to read the latest CLT update.

Let me get this straight. The union is willing to meet as often as possible. But the president of USAPA tells us that we will not get a contract until the litigation is settled. The same litigation that USAPA has delayed by appealing the DFR decision. The same litigation that may be further delayed if USAPA decided to push this all the way to the Supreme (confident) Court.

No kidding. You expect a TA before the 9th appeal is ruled on? The only thing on the table is the Kirby. That's a potential 5-8% raise for those still left, after the company reduces aircraft hulls down to as low as 250. Do you really think a NIC-based contract would pass if as many as 20% of those voting would face NIC-list furloughs and 10% voting would face NIC-list downgrades?

Just what would be accomplished other than FPL for the NAC by wasting time negotiating constantly with the company if we can not move forward until the litigation is finished? Do you enjoy wasting time and money on pointless efforts?

I suggest tell your BPR to put in a resolution to have the NAC stand down until the litigation is over, if you're a member. (Bad idea, though, since the NMB is mediating as much as the company is willing to show up)

USAPA could meet with the company 20 days of the month and we would not be any closer to a contract. So complaining that that company will not meet is a red herring. They understand wasting time and money, to no end why doesn’t this union leadership? Beside Cleary tells us the economy is bad, why negotiate in a bad economy? You get nowhere.

Cleardirect, again you're throwing out another group of random dots that don't connect. The Kirby Proposal cost us as many as 1,000 jobs and downgrades, regardless of which list is in place. It runs monthly hours up to West book, phases vacation parity in over four years, costing even more jobs. Just like any ALPA property, when negotiations are at the NMB mediation level, it's full time for the negotiators. Again, if you don't like that, put in a BPR resolution. If you're not a member, surely you know at least one MIG.

NYCDriver's right, what gold? We don't even have gold paint, much less gold plate on the table.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Well...yes and no.

... The Kirby offer of several years ago (still on the table, supposedly)

"At the first opportunity." The company is dragging their feet on negotiations. The NAC as made themselves available at almost any time to sit at the table, but the company schedules very few sessions. There is a lot of work to be done, and it's the company that seems to be a bit "casual" about getting anything done. So, the first opportunity (even if there finally was a meaningful pay raise) is likely at least 2 years down the road. Probably more. Unless the company suddenly acquires a conscience (unlikely) and begins to bargain promptly and in good faith. Don't hold your breath.

So which is it? Is the Kirby proposal still on the table or is the company failing to negotiate in good faith? Sounds to me like USAPA hasn't countered the Kirby proposal since they became a "union", so which side is really responsible dragging out negotiations or doing so in bad faith? Hint: I believe a Federal District Court already ruled on that issue.

 

[Black Swan]

So which is it? Is the Kirby proposal still on the table or is the company failing to negotiate in good faith? Sounds to me like USAPA hasn't countered the Kirby proposal since they became a "union", so which side is really responsible dragging out negotiations or doing so in bad faith? Hint: I believe a Federal District Court already ruled on that issue.

The Kirby proposal and bargaining in bad faith are one and the same.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The Kirby proposal and bargaining in bad faith are one and the same.

Please define a bad faith proposal and then explain specifically how the Kirby proposal meets that defintion.