US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[RSVP767]

arguing that Cromwell should go from 71 out of 1884 to number 1631 and have another 600 or so younger east pilot placed ahead of him is ludicrous.

So, I see you DO understand how we feel about NIC....and why. Glad to see you're coming around! You see, with the NIC, maybe your top 15% got screwed. Meanwhile our bottom 85% got screwed!

 

[RSVP767]

Well...yes and no.

Admittedly, there are a lot of senior captains who will "go for the gold at the first opportunity." I doubt the west pilot group is any different. But let's analyze just exactly what "go for the gold at the first opportunity" means.

"Go for the gold." What gold? The Kirby offer of several years ago (still on the table, supposedly) is woefully inadequate, and the company does not seem to be forthcoming in negotiations with anything that might be construed as "golden." It will take some mighty BIG improvements in pay and working conditions for the seniors to vote yes. For the 757, 767 and 330 captains, there is basically NO incentive to sign on to the Kirby proposal. They are already paid more than the west, and a 3% raise after 5 years of LOA 93 is laughable. As for the 737 and 320 captains, they are in the league of the Nicolau-harmed. You will not see many vote even to come up to west +3% because it is simply detrimental to their long-term needs.

"At the first opportunity." The company is dragging their feet on negotiations. The NAC as made themselves available at almost any time to sit at the table, but the company schedules very few sessions. There is a lot of work to be done, and it's the company that seems to be a bit "casual" about getting anything done. So, the first opportunity (even if there finally was a meaningful pay raise) is likely at least 2 years down the road. Probably more. Unless the company suddenly acquires a conscience (unlikely) and begins to bargain promptly and in good faith. Don't hold your breath.

So, while I agree that there are some senior captains on the east who would vote to ratify a really great contract, there is nothing indicative that such a thing exists now or will in the near future.

Well said!

 

[AWE Dog]

Please define a bad faith proposal and then explain specifically how the Kirby proposal meets that defintion.

The Kirby poposal is a insult, thats not even considering the possible job losses. But see, here we have somebody that thinks its just fine. But on the other hand the west would probably accept letter 93 minus 30%, if it had the Nic award in it. To bad I don't think the east would go it.

 

[snapthis]

Kind of like the Nic being on Dougs' desk, but you can't make him sign it?

Where is the DOH list? Oh, I remember, it was made irrelevant by a jury last spring. You can check Doug's shredder.

 

[Black Swan]

Please define a bad faith proposal and then explain specifically how the Kirby proposal meets that defintion.

No intent to settle, stonewalling, making it difficult to meet. Meet times spread out way too far. Harmful comments regarding LOA 93 "no way you are going to get this...." etc.

 

[CallawayGolf]

The Kirby poposal is a insult, thats not even considering the possible job losses. But see, here we have somebody that thinks its just fine. But on the other hand the west would probably accept letter 93 minus 30%, if it had the Nic award in it. To bad I don't think the east would go it.

Can you provide a well-reasoned, logical argument for why the company (or any company for that matter) would offer more than pay parity plus 3% for a single CBA? What negotiating leverage does USAPA have at the ready to get more than the Kirby proposal? Pilot unity? A stong economy? Corporate earnings above industry peers?

Hope and dreams are fine but irrational, baseless demands at the negotiating table won't engender any respect from the other side.

So what was USAPA's counter offer to the Kirby proposal?

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

Here is the crux of the situation for the Usapians. If you acted (not so covertly I might add. Stupid!) you can easily see problems both for the individual and the union. The clock counting down the "Cash or Chaos" campaign and the bragging on this internet board was classic though! I liked it! If this was not USAPA and its constituents then you are essentially left with a toothless tiger further eroding any imagination that USAPA has any ability to wield its influence on the company. Hmmm. What to do Mr. Cleary? What to do?

This is all quite interesting.

West pilots form PRIVATE, well let's say some what inclusive private web board to to protect west pilot's interests. Post are made on this password protected site, posts end up in CBA's hands and there is a RICO lawsuit filed by the CBA because the west pilots are trying to bring the house down. (Forget that it was thrown out of Court with prejudice yet we spend $$ on it to the tune of $250K)

Now here comes the CBA, with the CLT and BOS updates, the president's state of the union, very public web posts by the 'internet trash talkers' (thanks mike and scott for that term!!) and the count down/up time to to the cash or chaos date.

What's the company to do?? Could they file for an injunction? Could the identities of the 'internet trash talkers' be made public?? Could there be John Does 1 to 100 and otherwise un-named individuals be held responsible here??

Stay tuned......

 

[cubfan]

Is the Kirby proposal still on the table or is the company failing to negotiate in good faith?

Are they not one in the same?

 

[hp_fa]

No intent to settle, stonewalling, making it difficult to meet. Meet times spread out way too far. Harmful comments regarding LOA 93 "no way you are going to get this...." etc.

I don't follow.

From what I understand the Kirby Proposal was simply a proposal, to which no counter was ever made. (Correct me if I am wrong.) It appears, at least from what I read here, that USAPA is not interested at this time, while litigation and appeals are pending, to do anything about concluding any negotiating that includes Nicolau as the seniority list. The Company accepted Nicolau on or about 12/20/07, and USAPA is currently barred by injunction from using any seniority other than Nicolau. So, assuming my understanding of the facts is correct, where is the company stonewalling?

 

[Black Swan]

Can you provide a well-reasoned, logical argument for why the company (or any company for that matter) would offer more than pay parity plus 3% for a single CBA? What negotiating leverage does USAPA have at the ready to get more than the Kirby proposal? Pilot unity? A stong economy? Corporate earnings above industry peers?

Hope and dreams are fine but irrational, baseless demands at the negotiating table won't engender any respect from the other side.

So what was USAPA's counter offer to the Kirby proposal?

Hi Callaway- These guys are definitely in the drivers' seat. For all the reasons you see. The only reason I can see them doing the right thing is to finally turn this thing around, instead of milking it for their personal benefit. Like Gordon Bethune did at Continental after that place was looted, pillaged and morale taken to the lowest point. I would imagine there is someone out there, after making all the $$ in the world,who would really enjoy the challenge of doing things differently for everyone, customers, employees, vendors, etc. My hat is off to Bethune. He made that place what it is today. We have all been down too long. All of us. It cannot go on like it has much longer. A different approach might return a different response. I speak from the East perspective. You guys and they have to understand that we are hitting the age where we are not going to do it their way many more yrs. The west is going to inherit this place if it survives. We are just at the point where we are at the age where we statistically are not in the game for more that 10yrs at the OUTSIDE. Most are looking at 4 yrs MAX. We are not looking for the world. We just want something fair after all the BS

 

[CallawayGolf]

If the Kirby proposal is still on the table then the company has negotiated in good faith. Unless you're incapable of perceiving and accepting reality, the next move would be for the union to tentatively accept the offer and put it out to a vote, or to propose a counter-offer.

Delusions of grandeur will not bring you any closer to a CBA. Not that the east pilots want a new contract, but claiming the company is not negotiating in good faith is pure spin – their proposal is on the table awaiting a response.

 

[Poug Darker]

I was under the impression that the Kirby proposal was rejected and dismissed as an insult to the pilot group.

Let's be clear about what is being negotiated - it is not a pie in the sky proposal, but merely the 'industry standard' that everyone else is receiving.

And yes, those carriers are not doing much (if any at all) better than US, either.

So let's see...saving the company millions for years under a BK concessionary contract, only to want the 'industry standard' as a recovery point moving forward. Sounds like the greedy buggers want way too much, and are being totally unreasonable.

Cheers

 

[CallawayGolf]

I was under the impression that the Kirby proposal was rejected and dismissed as an insult to the pilot group.

Let's be clear about what is being negotiated - it is not a pie in the sky proposal, but merely the 'industry standard' that everyone else is receiving.

And yes, those carriers are not doing much (if any at all) better than US, either.

So let's see...saving the company millions for years under a BK concessionary contract, only to want the 'industry standard' as a recovery point moving forward. Sounds like the greedy buggers want way too much, and are being totally unreasonable.

Cheers

What you WANT and what the union will be able to successfully negotiate may well be miles apart. Is it reasonable for the union to stonewall negotiations asking for what they know will never be achieved? Will you be happier with a federal mediator dictating the terms of a new CBA? All roads lead to that end unless USAPA puts a little reality into their bargaining position.

Heck, even the biased, liberal news media have reported that the lack of a joint contract is now an internal labor dispute rather than calling it a management failure as they erroneously did a couple of years ago.

 

[Freebird]

Hi Callaway- These guys are definitely in the drivers' seat. For all the reasons you see. The only reason I can see them doing the right thing is to finally turn this thing around, instead of milking it for their personal benefit.

Do I detect a kinder, gentler Black Swan? Hey, its a start !



Like Gordon Bethune did at Continental after that place was looted, pillaged and morale taken to the lowest point. I would imagine there is someone out there, after making all the $$ in the world,who would really enjoy the challenge of doing things differently for everyone, customers, employees, vendors, etc. My hat is off to Bethune. He made that place what it is today.

We have all been down too long. All of us. It cannot go on like it has much longer.

Agree. Agree. Agree.

A different approach might return a different response. I speak from the East perspective.

True. Maybe Usapa can start a new trend? Drop the Rico? Stop wasting dues on Addington Appeals, elect a replacement for Ciabbatoni.

You guys and they have to understand that we are hitting the age where we are not going to do it their way many more yrs. The west is going to inherit this place if it survives.

We understand, seriously. Although we didnt demand DOH---we all know how that worked out, and thats not the intent of my response to you. As for inheriting the airline....hmmm, tough sell.

We are just at the point where we are at the age where we statistically are not in the game for more that 10yrs at the OUTSIDE. Most are looking at 4 yrs MAX. We are not looking for the world. We just want something fair after all the BS

Higher payscales for pilots with over 20 years? Say 70% Captain pay? just an idea.

 

[ROACLT]

If the Kirby proposal is still on the table then the company has negotiated in good faith. Unless you're incapable of perceiving and accepting reality, the next move would be for the union to tentatively accept the offer and put it out to a vote, or to propose a counter-offer.

Delusions of grandeur will not bring you any closer to a CBA. Not that the east pilots want a new contract, but claiming the company is not negotiating in good faith is pure spin – their proposal is on the table awaiting a response.

I suppose USAPA could just offer the company a mirror of the Southwest contract to retain the services of its pilots and wait for them to sign it. If the company slides Kirby back across, slide Southwest back across and wait for the RLA process to run its course. I guess then the USAPA would get accused of not negotiating in good faith because their ask was excessive.

The entire premise of your post is BS. There is an associated block hour flight crew cost figuring compensation, work rules, and benefits for operating the various aircraft types that can easily be calculated from the contracts and working agreements of Alaska, Southwest, Delta, Hawaiian, and JetBlue who are all working under new agreements. The Kirby proposal is inferior to the least of them, so USAPA ought to just throw the highest across the table, which is Southwest's.