US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[nic4us]

So, I see you DO understand how we feel about NIC....and why. Glad to see you're coming around! You see, with the NIC, maybe your top 15% got screwed. Meanwhile our bottom 85% got screwed!

Of course I understand how you feel about the Nic, been hearing it for almost 3 years, and suspect I will hear it for at least 10 more.

The fact is however, no pilot gets screwed by the Nic. We tried to negotiate seniority, and that failed. We went to arbitration in front of a third party neutral panel, and they delivered the result, based on the merits of our case.

That is as fair as it gets in this country.

My post was to again reinterate, that you cannot look at it as though the west pilots were added to the east list, that did not happen. Almost every arguement east posters have takes that irrelevant stance as a starting point as why they feel they got screwed or it is not fair or you got a windfall etc...

 

[CallawayGolf]

I suppose USAPA could just offer the company a mirror of the Southwest contract to retain the services of its pilots and wait for them to sign it. If the company slides Kirby back across, slide Southwest back across and wait for the RLA process to run its course. I guess then the USAPA would get accused of not negotiating in good faith because their ask was excessive.

The entire premise of your post is BS. There is an associated block hour flight crew cost figuring compensation, work rules, and benefits for operating the various aircraft types that can easily be calculated from the contracts and working agreements of Alaska, Southwest, Delta, Hawaiian, and JetBlue who are all working under new agreements. The Kirby proposal is inferior to the least of them, so USAPA ought to just throw the highest across the table, which is Southwest's.

Unless you're planing to work for WN, AS, DL or the rest, what's the point? What probability would you give of obtaining a WN-like contract at US while you're still under the age of 65? Suppose you did get such a contract, where would the money come from? Higher fares? More productivity? Leaner, lower-paid management ranks (wouldn't pay for pilot raises BTW)? None of these are remote possibilities, at least as I see it.

 

[nycbusdriver]

If the Kirby proposal is still on the table then the company has negotiated in good faith. Unless you're incapable of perceiving and accepting reality, the next move would be for the union to tentatively accept the offer and put it out to a vote, or to propose a counter-offer.

So, what you are saying here is that whatever crumbs the company deems to push across the table is:

1) by definition, good faith bargaining, and
2) in immediate need to go out to the membership for a vote.

YHGTBSM. The NAC has provided plenty of counter proposals, and the company doesn't seem to be receptive.

I'm certainly glad YOU have only one vote (that is if you are even a MIGS) and that you will never be on the NAC.

 

[nic4us]

So what was USAPA's counter offer to the Kirby proposal?

After being told no by Parker, Lakefield, The west MC, Nicolau, Gillen, Brucia, Prater, Rice, Freund, The Northwest MC, The United MC, Wake, 9 jurors, and the list keeps growing. usapa countered the Kirby proposal with more delay in order to further their attempts to illegaly get a DOH seniority list.

 

[ROACLT]

Unless you're planing to work for WN, AS, DL or the rest, what's the point? What probability would you give of obtaining a WN-like contract at US while you're still under the age of 65? Suppose you did get such a contract, where would the money come from? Higher fares? More productivity? Leaner, lower-paid management ranks (wouldn't pay for pilot raises BTW)? None of these are remote possibilities, at least as I see it.

The ability to operate leaner or raise fares has nothing to do with the pilots, or any other labor group, it has to do with marketing, operational planning, route development, and delivering customer service. There is no incentive or pressure to roll up the sleeves or improve these areas if the difference in running a under performing company can always be made up by the rank and file subsidizing it with less than standard compensation. Piedmont Airlines did not have a huge population hubs like Atlanta or NY or Philadelphia but they kicked the crap out of Delta and Eastern with great operational performance and hubs like ROA, GSO, CLT, SYR, and DAY to name a few by using industry leading customer service and the pilots were at the "TOP" of the industry in pay.

So see it however you like but if the pilots want to dig the spurs in and force the horse to deliver or ride her into the ground, it might be you who should look to go work at WN, AS, DL or the rest. You can chant the mantra, if you don't like it leave but I suspect there are enough with opposing voices that say, they have ridden to long to get off and want to try to force the nag to run, whatever the outcome.

Its like the political pendulum between left and right. The outcome is going to depend on both majority and mood. If someone has their mind and priorities set or their hackles up, you can blather all you want but it will run its course and those with opinions opposite of yours are just secure in their beliefs as yours. Keep opining as if your arguments are the rational ones because again it all comes down to point of view but hey this stuff keeps message boards going.

 

[CallawayGolf]

So, what you are saying here is that whatever crumbs the company deems to push across the table is:

1) by definition, good faith bargaining, and
2) in immediate need to go out to the membership for a vote.

YHGTBSM. The NAC has provided plenty of counter proposals, and the company doesn't seem to be receptive.

I'm certainly glad YOU have only one vote (that is if you are even a MIGS) and that you will never be on the NAC.

You call pay parity+3% or $120M annually crumbs. Okay, so how much has US made in profits since the Kirby offer was made? How much has US paid in shareholder distributions?

 

[AWE Dog]

Unless you're planing to work for WN, AS, DL or the rest, what's the point? What probability would you give of obtaining a WN-like contract at US while you're still under the age of 65? Suppose you did get such a contract, where would the money come from? Higher fares? More productivity? Leaner, lower-paid management ranks (wouldn't pay for pilot raises BTW)? None of these are remote possibilities, at least as I see it.

And this is why the west has had industry leading contacts and benefits all these years. Pilots at America West have very low pay expectations. In all fairness if they had been paid industry wages there would probably be no America West.

 

[Poug Darker]

You call pay parity+3% or $120M annually crumbs. Okay, so how much has US made in profits since the Kirby offer was made? How much has US paid in shareholder distributions?

How much has been frittered away by the CEO and CFO in WORTHLESS derivative contracts?
I'll tell ya: $400 MILLION DOLLARS.
My friend, if they can throw away that much money and NOT be accountable for it, they can surely afford to pay their workforce industry standard wages.
Cheers.

 

[HPDriver]

As long as we let the company dictate JNC meetings we are toast. You know what we need to do.

You're right!

And the company can dictate because USAPA has no leverage.

USAPA has no leverage because it has two groups of pilots that can be played against each other. Its house is a mess and its leadership perpetually distracted.

Nic is not going anywhere and its futile to try and push it away for another 3 years. Its time to accept the Nic, clean house, and focus on a contract.

Let's move forward.

VYEIIMN

 

[AWE Dog]

After being told no by Parker, Lakefield, The west MC, Nicolau, Gillen, Brucia, Prater, Rice, Freund, The Northwest MC, The United MC, Wake, 9 jurors, and the list keeps growing. usapa countered the Kirby proposal with more delay in order to further their attempts to illegaly get a DOH seniority list.

Blah, Blah, Blah, waste of typing

 

[CallawayGolf]

How much has been frittered away by the CEO and CFO in WORTHLESS derivative contracts?
I'll tell ya: $400 MILLION DOLLARS.
My friend, if they can throw away that much money and NOT be accountable for it, they can surely afford to pay their workforce industry standard wages.
Cheers.

Market Rate Securities are balance sheet items and non-operating sources/uses of cash. Pilot wages come from Operating Activities. Good luck trying to negotiate pilot pay from non-operating sources of cash.

 

[SparrowHawk]

How much has been frittered away by the CEO and CFO in WORTHLESS derivative contracts?
I'll tell ya: $400 MILLION DOLLARS.
My friend, if they can throw away that much money and NOT be accountable for it, they can surely afford to pay their workforce industry standard wages.
Cheers.

400 Million would also buy a whole lot of Jet A or pay pilots and other worgroups. At US Airways Accountability is a one way street. The arrogance is outrageous

 

[Poug Darker]

I want to see what the appeals court says before voting or accepting anything, especially the nic list.
Why the big hurry now? We've all waited this long, what's a few more weeks?
Oh, and why the big rush to sign the Kirby deal NOW, before the LOA93 grievance is concluded?'
I want to wait and see on that one, too.
We are all old enough to have developed one attribute in common: patience.
LOA93 has been a tough road for a long time but to sign up for MORE CONCESSIONS is ridiculous and amazingly foolish.
I'll wait.
Cheers.

 

[Poug Darker]

Market Rate Securities are balance sheet items and non-operating sources/uses of cash. Pilot wages come from Operating Activities. Good luck trying to negotiate pilot pay from non-operating sources of cash.

Hey, I'm just a simple country boy from the back hills. All I know is one day Mr. CFO had $400 MILLION in cash to use as the executive suite pleased. The next day after they spent it on WORTHLESS PAPER, it was gone - and will never return.
FOUR HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS
Could'a spent it on....airplanes?.....fuel?......new seats?......new tugs?.......cookies for the emps at xmas?......
NO! Let's FLUSH IT DOWN THE DRAIN
Could they have spent it on higher wages or better benefits for the employees? Yes. Can they now? NO Why? 'Cause it is GONE.
OBVIOUSLY, they have $$ to burn.
Ante up, Tempe. It's time to do your people right and pay them what they are worth.
Cheers.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Hey, I'm just a simple country boy from the back hills. All I know is one day Mr. CFO had $400 MILLION in cash to use as the executive suite pleased. The next day after they spent it on WORTHLESS PAPER, it was gone - and will never return.
FOUR HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS
Could'a spent it on....airplanes?.....fuel?......new seats?......new tugs?.......cookies for the emps at xmas?......
NO! Let's FLUSH IT DOWN THE DRAIN
Could they have spent it on higher wages or better benefits for the employees? Yes. Can they now? NO Why? 'Cause it is GONE.
OBVIOUSLY, they have $$ to burn.
Ante up, Tempe. It's time to do your people right and pay them what they are worth.
Cheers.

Hopefully the NAC understands these distinctions or the negotiations will be futile. I gather that is the point though, isn't it?

Cheers