US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[AWE Dog]

Loosing 1400 numbers? My heart bleeds!!! You didn't LOSE 1400 numbers. You are "combined" on a list "relative" to your D-O-H/LOS....NOT percentage, like YOU want. I worked for MY years with the SAME company as you. Why should YOU get more? ENTITLEMENT? I think NOT!

We (meaning NORMAL labor unionist) have NEVER truly valued "relative position" in labor unions when companies merge. The lessons learned from this can be found in ALPA's own literature (flying the line Vol. 1 and 2) The Piedmont pilots learned the lesson well with Kagel. They screwed the Empire guys and now they know why YOU are trying to screw them.

The ONLY value EVER recognized was D-O-H. Relative position causes EXACTLY what is going on now.

"Relative seniority"? What's relative about position on YOUR list than relative on ours?? What am I, chopped liver?? I work an hour you work :15 minutes. You want MORE recognition for YOUR service than mine? How about more pay for :15 minutes rather than an hour? No wonder the public HATES labor unions....guys like you wanting MORE than the rest get. How is that fair? That's because IT'S NOT!

Go to work in the real world and find out why your demand for more pay for less time gets you what you want. They'll fire your toukas in a NY minute!

That "east commuter" who may in that 1000 number you give by example COULD bid PHX....if and unless they close the domicle there as well. To many "if's" around here. What I want to know is why YOUR years of service at HP are more valuable than those who were hired after you. What do you tell your west brothers and sisters why they should honor YOUR years of service and you won't honor mine?

Your lesson: Do as I SAY, not as I DO! What a great lesson from our West brothers and sisters.

Answer: THEY'RE NOT! If you do NOT recognize my seniority then how can a West pilot junior to you expect YOU to recognize theirs?

Look, supply and demand rules the pilots now here at US Airways and thats all there is to it.

I want recognition for MY years of service for promotion with the same company that YOU work for, otherwise I'd rather have NO UNION!

If I don't get it, I want employment at will. Let the greater good be served.

Those of you who are NOT pilots at US Airways BEWARE...the West pilot mentality will poison your mind and continue to intrigue you to the point of amazement. Make every attempt to avoid reasoning with us at ALL COSTS! Pilots don't deserve a labor union.

So I make this prediction today: THE PILOTS AT US AIRWAYS will lose union representation within the year. This will set the stage for the downfall of what's left in the labor movement in the next five years.

TIME will tell (not these boards).

Alot of truth in this post.

 

[AWE Dog]

I remember talk of having a plan called Project Zanzibar. Perhaps you can point to where Parker said that it was a foregone conclusion that the plan would be put into effect. On the other hand, Parker left no doubt about US' fate absent the merger and for good reason - US was out of money by the time the merger occurred. No money and continuing loses equal liquidation...

Jim

And the west stepped in with alot of money and saved USair. West, Money oxymoron

 

[BoeingBoy]

And the west stepped in with alot of money and saved USair. West, Money oxymoron

I'd ask you to point out where I said that...

The merger provided the attraction to get the outside investors to put money in. No merger, no outside investors, no US. It really is that simple. If you don't believe it, tell me how much "cash" (cash, cash equivalents, short term investments) US had on Sept 1, 2005 - a month before the merger - and how much US lost in August 2005.

Jim

 

[luvthe9]

I remember talk of having a plan called Project Zanzibar. Perhaps you can point to where Parker said that it was a foregone conclusion that the plan would be put into effect. On the other hand, Parker left no doubt about US' fate absent the merger and for good reason - US was out of money by the time the merger occurred. No money and continuing loses equal liquidation...

Jim

I'm sure you do, it's in one of Parkers videos. Usair provided all the money for this merger not the west. The west was toast with out us.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Usair provided all the money for this merger not the west.

Just how big was the check that US wrote? Something like $0 perhaps? US, like HP, had no money for the merger - it was all outside investor money. Only ofter the merger was announced was that outside investor money made available. Like I said, no merger, no outside investor money, no US. Would HP have followed the same path? Quite possibly although I doubt anyone can say with certainty what effect the disappearance of US would have had on the rest of the industry or individual airlines in the industry. Remember that HP was making some money and had cash - neither applied to US.

Jim

 

[Tiger 1050]

Careful Jim their heads may explode...

 

[BoeingBoy]

I've just got to laugh at some of the stuff that comes from the East posters. Quoting Parker when it suits them but ignoring his words when they don't fit the argument. Talking about absolute longevity rather that what longevity is worth. Saying relative seniority will be the downfall of the industry but not wanting to give the shuttle pilots even that. Etc. At times it almost becomes sad - all excuses for wanting to make up for their lack of career advancement by pushing down the West pilots.

Jim

 

[HPDriver]

Remember that HP was making some money and had cash - neither applied to US.

Jim

As well as access to the credit market.

US was a dead airline. HP was not.

 

[HPDriver]

Loosing 1400 numbers? My heart bleeds!!! You didn't LOSE 1400 numbers. You are "combined" on a list "relative" to your D-O-H/LOS....NOT percentage, like YOU want. I worked for MY years with the SAME company as you. Why should YOU get more? ENTITLEMENT? I think NOT!

We (meaning NORMAL labor unionist) have NEVER truly valued "relative position" in labor unions when companies merge. The lessons learned from this can be found in ALPA's own literature (flying the line Vol. 1 and 2) The Piedmont pilots learned the lesson well with Kagel. They screwed the Empire guys and now they know why YOU are trying to screw them.

The ONLY value EVER recognized was D-O-H. Relative position causes EXACTLY what is going on now.

"Relative seniority"? What's relative about position on YOUR list than relative on ours?? What am I, chopped liver?? I work an hour you work :15 minutes. You want MORE recognition for YOUR service than mine? How about more pay for :15 minutes rather than an hour? No wonder the public HATES labor unions....guys like you wanting MORE than the rest get. How is that fair? That's because IT'S NOT!

Go to work in the real world and find out why your demand for more pay for less time gets you what you want. They'll fire your toukas in a NY minute!

That "east commuter" who may in that 1000 number you give by example COULD bid PHX....if and unless they close the domicle there as well. To many "if's" around here. What I want to know is why YOUR years of service at HP are more valuable than those who were hired after you. What do you tell your west brothers and sisters why they should honor YOUR years of service and you won't honor mine?

Your lesson: Do as I SAY, not as I DO! What a great lesson from our West brothers and sisters.

Answer: THEY'RE NOT! If you do NOT recognize my seniority then how can a West pilot junior to you expect YOU to recognize theirs?

Look, supply and demand rules the pilots now here at US Airways and thats all there is to it.

I want recognition for MY years of service for promotion with the same company that YOU work for, otherwise I'd rather have NO UNION!

If I don't get it, I want employment at will. Let the greater good be served.

Those of you who are NOT pilots at US Airways BEWARE...the West pilot mentality will poison your mind and continue to intrigue you to the point of amazement. Make every attempt to avoid reasoning with us at ALL COSTS! Pilots don't deserve a labor union.

So I make this prediction today: THE PILOTS AT US AIRWAYS will lose union representation within the year. This will set the stage for the downfall of what's left in the labor movement in the next five years.

TIME will tell (not these boards).

Complete and utter BS.

 

[HPDriver]

Driver,

Have you ever seen or read D. Butkovic's two documents explaining the pay restoration?

Hate

You didn't answer my question.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Just how big was the check that US wrote? Something like $0 perhaps? US, like HP, had no money for the merger - it was all outside investor money. Only ofter the merger was announced was that outside investor money made available. Like I said, no merger, no outside investor money, no US. Would HP have followed the same path? Quite possibly although I doubt anyone can say with certainty what effect the disappearance of US would have had on the rest of the industry or individual airlines in the industry. Remember that HP was making some money and had cash - neither applied to US.

Jim

Weren't you an East pilot? If so, why all of the animosity towards them? Because they threw the likes of ALPA out? Just curious because for a retired pilot, you sure have a lot to say. From the sound of it, you were retired before USAPA became the legal bargaining agent. Yet, you have more posts than a ranch in Texas.

 

[HPDriver]

I've just got to laugh at some of the stuff that comes from the East posters. Quoting Parker when it suits them but ignoring his words when they don't fit the argument. Talking about absolute longevity rather that what longevity is worth. Saying relative seniority will be the downfall of the industry but not wanting to give the shuttle pilots even that. Etc. At times it almost becomes sad - all excuses for wanting to make up for their lack of career advancement by pushing down the West pilots.

Jim

Alot of truth in this post.

 

[Waketurbulence]

Weren't you an East pilot? If so, why all of the animosity towards them? Because they threw the likes of ALPA out? Just curious because for a retired pilot, you sure have a lot to say. From the sound of it, you were retired before USAPA became the legal bargaining agent. Yet, you have more posts than a ranch in Texas.

You don't like what he writes because deep down inside you know everything he says is true.

 

[AWE Dog]

I've just got to laugh at some of the stuff that comes from the East posters. Quoting Parker when it suits them but ignoring his words when they don't fit the argument. Talking about absolute longevity rather that what longevity is worth. Saying relative seniority will be the downfall of the industry but not wanting to give the shuttle pilots even that. Etc. At times it almost becomes sad - all excuses for wanting to make up for their lack of career advancement by pushing down the West pilots.

Jim

complete and utter BS

 

[Tiger 1050]

At times it almost becomes sad - all excuses for wanting to make up for their lack of career advancement by pushing down the West pilots.

Jim

And I really believe this is what irks them the most. They thought they'd come in slap the little guy around and guess what...we fought back!