US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[cleardirect]

Loosing 1400 numbers? My heart bleeds!!! You didn't LOSE 1400 numbers. You are "combined" on a list "relative" to your D-O-H/LOS....NOT percentage, like YOU want. I worked for MY years with the SAME company as you. Why should YOU get more? ENTITLEMENT? I think NOT!

We (meaning NORMAL labor unionist) have NEVER truly valued "relative position" in labor unions when companies merge. The lessons learned from this can be found in ALPA's own literature (flying the line Vol. 1 and 2) The Piedmont pilots learned the lesson well with Kagel. They screwed the Empire guys and now they know why YOU are trying to screw them.

The ONLY value EVER recognized was D-O-H. Relative position causes EXACTLY what is going on now.

"Relative seniority"? What's relative about position on YOUR list than relative on ours?? What am I, chopped liver?? I work an hour you work :15 minutes. You want MORE recognition for YOUR service than mine? How about more pay for :15 minutes rather than an hour? No wonder the public HATES labor unions....guys like you wanting MORE than the rest get. How is that fair? That's because IT'S NOT!

Go to work in the real world and find out why your demand for more pay for less time gets you what you want. They'll fire your toukas in a NY minute!

That "east commuter" who may in that 1000 number you give by example COULD bid PHX....if and unless they close the domicle there as well. To many "if's" around here. What I want to know is why YOUR years of service at HP are more valuable than those who were hired after you. What do you tell your west brothers and sisters why they should honor YOUR years of service and you won't honor mine?

Your lesson: Do as I SAY, not as I DO! What a great lesson from our West brothers and sisters.

Answer: THEY'RE NOT! If you do NOT recognize my seniority then how can a West pilot junior to you expect YOU to recognize theirs?

Look, supply and demand rules the pilots now here at US Airways and thats all there is to it.

I want recognition for MY years of service for promotion with the same company that YOU work for, otherwise I'd rather have NO UNION!

If I don't get it, I want employment at will. Let the greater good be served.

Those of you who are NOT pilots at US Airways BEWARE...the West pilot mentality will poison your mind and continue to intrigue you to the point of amazement. Make every attempt to avoid reasoning with us at ALL COSTS! Pilots don't deserve a labor union.

So I make this prediction today: THE PILOTS AT US AIRWAYS will lose union representation within the year. This will set the stage for the downfall of what's left in the labor movement in the next five years.
TIME will tell (not these boards).

Blah, blah blah, rehash of an old discredited argument. Whatever.

The bolded part is the interesting part. How many times have we been told that the east is the majority to sit back and let you guys run this thing. Well you are right. The east is the majorty is if we become at will it will be because you east pilots do not deserve a union. It will be because the east pilots choose to become at will. Again no one to blame but yourselves. You deserve to put yourself at risk. BTW the downfall of the union movement started a long time ago. For the very reason why steel workers and other manufactuing has moved out of this counrty.

Unions drove companies out of business. That old 60's labor style that you guys practice does not fly in todays world. But as you point out we are younger and can adapt. You old guys might have trouble dealing with the new world. I have worked without a union before and can do it again. How about you guys?

What is the union going to do for the guys that get fired over the sick out? NOTHING!!! Wave to them as they go and hope that they are senior to you.

 

[cleardirect]

HP,
They do actually owe us at least the step increases, If not what exactly does the freeze mean. Oh they will spin it any way they can to try and say they don't. Remember this is the same Johnny O style mgt group that is using an expired loa 5 against LAS. They simply can't be trusted at any point. Putting the NIC aside, this is the exact reason the east would be reluctant to sign an agreement now, the ink wouldn't even be dry before they re-nig and interpret in their favor. Look at the Kirby, the offer parity plus 3%, what does that mean. The east 75/76, and 330's are the highest paying types on either side. Does that mean the west goes to east scale or could it mean the east drops down to west scale. They do like everyone to be the same. I could see it now, "OH thats not how we interpret parity". Screwed again. The Nic will take care of it self, we have much larger eggs to fry. I'll be happy to stay where I am for now, and it doesn't have anything to do with the NIC as the driver.

Kind of a change in attitude I would say. Before it was the compnay absolutly owes the east LOA 83 wages. Now it is becoming step increases. What will it be tomorrow?

Has someone finally spoken to TP or their reps to find out the chances of win this grievance?

 

[cubfan]

Kind of a change in attitude I would say. Before it was the compnay absolutly owes the east LOA 83 wages. Now it is becoming step increases. What will it be tomorrow?

Has someone finally spoken to TP or their reps to find out the chances of win this grievance?

Clear, I plan to talk to them soon, no change in attitude, all I'm saying is that even if we lose on the full loa wages, the snap back will be the minimum. That part is VERY clear, read the 2002 restructure agreement and loa 93 yourself. The step increases were the part frozen at mimimum.

 

[cleardirect]

Clear, I plan to talk to them soon, no change in attitude, all I'm saying is that even if we lose on the full loa wages, the snap back will be the minimum. That part is VERY clear, read the 2002 restructure agreement and loa 93 yourself. The step increases were the part frozen at mimimum.

I have read them. actually I agree with you, the way I read it the step raises should start back up. However the company is going to claim that it is status quo until a new contract.

But that is a long way from the $40 per hour or so raise that some seem to think they are going to get. To me not worth the risk personally or to the union for all of the sick calls. It goes to grievance Feb 1 should have waited. I think the reaction from the company over all the cancellations is going to be swift and harsh.

 

[End of USAPA]

I have read them. actually I agree with you, the way I read it the step raises should start back up. However the company is going to claim that it is status quo until a new contract.

But that is a long way from the $40 per hour or so raise that some seem to think they are going to get. To me not worth the risk personally or to the union for all of the sick calls. It goes to grievance Feb 1 should have waited. I think the reaction from the company over all the cancellations is going to be swift and harsh.

The step raises will occur, the company will fight the snapback and probably lose that to an arbitrator. Our plan b will keep Nicolau on Parker's desk for another few years. ANd then there is the MDA suit. Its great to be an east pilot!!! Happy New Year!

 

[Barrister]

You forgot to mention in your example. that your east 84 to 86 hire may never check out as a 330 capatin as a result of 300 to 600 younger west pilots placed ahead them. And you scream career expectations?

Exactly, especially when PHX closes. There is your windfall as well as each and every East FO getting the shaft. You Westies never own up top the fact that NIC lets you cash in NOW and for years after we are LONG GONE..............Thanks St. NIC......That is why ................here it comes......wait for it........

VNIIMN

PS, just looked at an earlier post about losing numbers.....try a different angle.....an East October 84 hire ...for instance a guy named Chalman...his number is 1131 pre nic and 1630 post NIC a "loss" of 500 numbers.......but where is the guy hired just after Challman OUT WEST...in other words the guy hired in the WEST class right after Challmal is CROMWELL Number 781 on the NIC. He was hired after Challman and is over 50% closer to the number 1 spot. When PHX closes his RELATIVE position will be GOLDEN out East. You guys are dreaming if you think this will work.

Lets go over this again....West guy hired right after East guy. West guy number 781...East guy number....1630.

EFOIGYB
VNIIMN

 

[Metroyet]

Exactly, especially when PHX closes. There is your windfall as well as each and every East FO getting the shaft. You Westies never own up top the fact that NIC lets you cash in NOW and for years after we are LONG GONE..............Thanks St. NIC......That is why ................here it comes......wait for it........

VNIIMN

Your vote is canceled out. That's all you've got. Trust those captains to turn down cash after the 9th affirms?

I wouldn't. I know how it operates over there.

 

[BoeingBoy]

And where's the proof that that 84-86 hire would have checked out as 330 captain anyway? Since the East likes to quote Parker, remember what he said about US liquidating without the merger...

Jim

 

[Barrister]

And where's the proof that that 84-86 hire would have checked out as 330 captain anyway? Since the East likes to quote Parker, remember what he said about US liquidating without the merger...

Jim

Well oh wise one I guess we will know in 2-3 years won't we.

VNIIMN
EFOIGYB

 

[HPDriver]

So what's the problem? Didn't see anything. USAirways means business! 150 cancellations! Why do you think the flytes were cancelled? Where are the pylots? Are you one of them happy about this? :angry:

Flytes and pylots?

Your meds wearing off?

 

[luvthe9]

And where's the proof that that 84-86 hire would have checked out as 330 captain anyway? Since the East likes to quote Parker, remember what he said about US liquidating without the merger...

Jim

Remember "Project Zanzibar" the west liquidation Jim?

 

[HPDriver]

The step raises will occur...

Really?

Then why didn't you bring this up prior to today?

 

[Hate2fly]

Really?

Then why didn't you bring this up prior to today?

Driver,

Have you ever seen or read D. Butkovic's two documents explaining the pay restoration?

Hate

 

[BoeingBoy]

Well oh wise one I guess we will know in 2-3 years won't we.

I take it you have no proof...

And it would have happened 4 years ago without the merger.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Remember "Project Zanzibar" the west liquidation Jim?

I remember talk of having a plan called Project Zanzibar. Perhaps you can point to where Parker said that it was a foregone conclusion that the plan would be put into effect. On the other hand, Parker left no doubt about US' fate absent the merger and for good reason - US was out of money by the time the merger occurred. No money and continuing loses equal liquidation...

Jim