US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[luvthe9]

ALL of the mess is managements fault. What brilliant over paid VP made the decision to park E190's move the time to the AB's knowing that they did not have enough pilots trained on the AB to cover the time.

Please remember we have the highest paid management team in the industry, yet we are always last in every category, and don't even bring up ontime performance anyone can add 25 mins a leg to create the illusion of being ontime, these guys have to go!!!!

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Do you realize it is known fact that the company does monitor this board?

Or maybe you don't. I can't believe you'd post that crap here.

Utter stupidity.

Hey watch it! :down:

 

[nic4us]

You forgot to mention in your example. that your east 84 to 86 hire may never check out as a 330 capatin as a result of 300 to 600 younger west pilots placed ahead them. And you scream career expectations?

And you fail to mention, that with only 9 330s before the merger, he/she may never have gotten there anyway, or cared to i.e. Sully. Also, that now we have 12 or 14 330s, and we were to be a launch customer for the 350s, and that the widebody fleet should have continued to grow and that their chances of making widebody captain greatly improved because of the merger. Is it better to be #290 of 2900 with 9 330s, or #590 of 5200 with 30 330/350s?

Yes, career expectaion is one of the tenants of ALPA merger policy that was followed in the Nic, as were the other 4.

 

[ableoneable]

Hey watch it! :down:

Udder stupidity?

 

[HPDriver]

Hey watch it! :down:

Great post.

Watch what?

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Udder stupidity?

Hey Jasper, you mean me? An Udder can't be stupid. It contains milk, not gray matter. However, if you mean me, think what you will while I go dust off my many doctorates. Carry on.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Great post.

Watch what?

Thanks but you have plenty of your own posts to watch, don'tcha?

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

Because THEY CAN'T!

Go HERE to find out WHY!

http://www.keepusflying.com/Pilots.html

Here is where Ferguson sums it up:

"Now, any company has the right to do whatever it deems necessary to maintain a profit. But, that same company has the obligation to do so while abiding by the contractual agreements with its labor groups, and this is where we have a real problem.

US Airways has been blatantly ignoring their contractual agreements with this pilot group."

WHAT CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENTS???

You mean the "final and binding" one??? Where is that?

Oh, that's right, we have to have a VOTE!!! (If and unless there is no union, then you have an Onion.)

EVEN WAKE SAID THAT!!

Let me explain this to you: NO COURT CAN MAKE ME VOTE FOR A CBA! Until that happens, SUE USAPA INTO OBLIVION! I DON'T CARE. YOU WEST PILOTS DO NOT DESERVE A UNION. What you have now (or have LEFT is an "Onion" and anyway you slice it it still makes you "cry and whine" likes children.

I am an East pilot. I wouldn't waste my days ON OR OFF going to Las Vegas. NO EAST PILOT SHOULD WASTE THEIR TIME! SHUT IT DOWN! There is NOTHING you can do to stop it because you keep "defecating where you eat!"

After having watched all the committee members put in the hard work they do trying to cover your sorry ------ so you can have SOME protection from the company's transgressions all you can do is complain about "you agreed" and "final and binding", how USAPA isn't a "real" union....blah blah blah. You GET what you give.

It's time for the East pilots to move to employment at will. The "onion" will take care of itself. Because the company HAS US DIVIDED! Don't believe me???

Read their letter to the NMB attached to this post. IT SUMS IT UP!!!

Happy New Year to you and the rest of the BPR.

The level of internet trash talk has reached pre-election fervor.

Something must be happening to have the 'heavy' hitters out spewing the talking points.

 

[End of USAPA]

Looks like the west pilots are gunning to get people fired. Wow! Can somebody point to a problem? Didn't think so- just west imaginations. The desperation. VNIIMN!!! Plan b!!! How do you all like that?

We'll talk again in about five years!

 

[HPDriver]

Wow! Can somebody point to a problem?

Yep, sure can.

This just in:

Over 100 cancelled east flights by mid afternoon today. WE MEAN BUSINESS!!!

WOW. When will east get their deserved raise? Contractually it is owed to us.
In black and white

 

[flypg]

You do realize, that the West pilot one below your hypothetical east pilot lost 1400 numbers? Further, that the 86 hires relative seniority increased about 8% while that same West pilot, a 96 hire ( 10 year spread) relative seniority decreased 3%, a 11% gain between the two.

Yeah, maybe you are right about an 86 hire ( basically, the bottom half the list) so lets look at an 85 A320 capt. He gives up 600 numbers, moves up in relative seniority 10%, can easily hold 320 capt PHX, his West counterpart hired in 90 ( 5 year spread) lost 1300 numbers moved down 2%.

Ok, lets look at an 84 hire. Gives up 300 numbers gains 20% relative, is placed next to a West guy( hired in 87, 3 year spread) who lost 1000 numbers, lost 10% relative. There are over 900 east pilots on the Nic that fall above this level. Almost 1/3rd of the east active pilots at the merger date.

Looks to me as though there are about 1000 east pilots who got a pretty good deal with the Nic. Many have already retired I am sure, but so have West pilots senior to those 700-800 east pilots that remain at the top.

So it would not surprise me at all to find an east commuter, who actually would like to see Nic implementation, so they could get to PHX and change their commute to a simple drive across town, or a one hour flight, departing every 30 mins, from SAN, LAX. Actually, I have already met 4.

An 85 hire, 25 years either LOS and DOH meaning no furlough looses about 900 numbers. So from the early 80's down to about the first 500, yes, you may find a few for whom NIC is OK. For the vast majority however even going into the 90's there are no way short of a boat load of money could change their mind. Commuting is not much of a factor. With about 800 retirements coming up in less than 3 years it makes NIC even less palatable.

 

[end_of_alpa]

You do realize, that the West pilot one below your hypothetical east pilot lost 1400 numbers? Further, that the 86 hires relative seniority increased about 8% while that same West pilot, a 96 hire ( 10 year spread) relative seniority decreased 3%, a 11% gain between the two.

Yeah, maybe you are right about an 86 hire ( basically, the bottom half the list) so lets look at an 85 A320 capt. He gives up 600 numbers, moves up in relative seniority 10%, can easily hold 320 capt PHX, his West counterpart hired in 90 ( 5 year spread) lost 1300 numbers moved down 2%.

Ok, lets look at an 84 hire. Gives up 300 numbers gains 20% relative, is placed next to a West guy( hired in 87, 3 year spread) who lost 1000 numbers, lost 10% relative. There are over 900 east pilots on the Nic that fall above this level. Almost 1/3rd of the east active pilots at the merger date.

Looks to me as though there are about 1000 east pilots who got a pretty good deal with the Nic. Many have already retired I am sure, but so have West pilots senior to those 700-800 east pilots that remain at the top.

So it would not surprise me at all to find an east commuter, who actually would like to see Nic implementation, so they could get to PHX and change their commute to a simple drive across town, or a one hour flight, departing every 30 mins, from SAN, LAX. Actually, I have already met 4.

Loosing 1400 numbers? My heart bleeds!!! You didn't LOSE 1400 numbers. You are "combined" on a list "relative" to your D-O-H/LOS....NOT percentage, like YOU want. I worked for MY years with the SAME company as you. Why should YOU get more? ENTITLEMENT? I think NOT!

We (meaning NORMAL labor unionist) have NEVER truly valued "relative position" in labor unions when companies merge. The lessons learned from this can be found in ALPA's own literature (flying the line Vol. 1 and 2) The Piedmont pilots learned the lesson well with Kagel. They screwed the Empire guys and now they know why YOU are trying to screw them.

The ONLY value EVER recognized was D-O-H. Relative position causes EXACTLY what is going on now.

"Relative seniority"? What's relative about position on YOUR list than relative on ours?? What am I, chopped liver?? I work an hour you work :15 minutes. You want MORE recognition for YOUR service than mine? How about more pay for :15 minutes rather than an hour? No wonder the public HATES labor unions....guys like you wanting MORE than the rest get. How is that fair? That's because IT'S NOT!

Go to work in the real world and find out why your demand for more pay for less time gets you what you want. They'll fire your toukas in a NY minute!

That "east commuter" who may in that 1000 number you give by example COULD bid PHX....if and unless they close the domicle there as well. To many "if's" around here. What I want to know is why YOUR years of service at HP are more valuable than those who were hired after you. What do you tell your west brothers and sisters why they should honor YOUR years of service and you won't honor mine?

Your lesson: Do as I SAY, not as I DO! What a great lesson from our West brothers and sisters.

Answer: THEY'RE NOT! If you do NOT recognize my seniority then how can a West pilot junior to you expect YOU to recognize theirs?

Look, supply and demand rules the pilots now here at US Airways and thats all there is to it.

I want recognition for MY years of service for promotion with the same company that YOU work for, otherwise I'd rather have NO UNION!

If I don't get it, I want employment at will. Let the greater good be served.

Those of you who are NOT pilots at US Airways BEWARE...the West pilot mentality will poison your mind and continue to intrigue you to the point of amazement. Make every attempt to avoid reasoning with us at ALL COSTS! Pilots don't deserve a labor union.

So I make this prediction today: THE PILOTS AT US AIRWAYS will lose union representation within the year. This will set the stage for the downfall of what's left in the labor movement in the next five years.

TIME will tell (not these boards).

 

[End of USAPA]

Yep, sure can.

So what's the problem? Didn't see anything. USAirways means business! 150 cancellations! Why do you think the flytes were cancelled? Where are the pylots? Are you one of them happy about this? :angry:

 

[Hate2fly]

Yep, sure can.

Driver,

Most of the east pilots view this place as just a job........it is no longer a career! Very few east pilots will go the extra mile for the company like we would years ago. The company has been short on staffing east pilots for the last 5 years. This is not something new to us in the east. I get the feeling guys like yourself out west think you can save this operation.........it will never happen. The only thing you can do is fly from point A to B safely. That is what they pay us to do.

We are a very old/senior group back here and that means we get sick more often......it is just a part of getting older. I have told you about our average age (59) numerous times.

When guys like the Black Swan or NYC and so many more tell you something you really should be listening.

Learn to live with what you have, it's all you are going to get.

Hate

 

[cubfan]

They owe you nothing. And they're doing everything to hoard money.

I wouldn't waste my time going to the reps. They have a tendency to tell their constituency what they want to hear. See what TP has to say first. Talk to DH as well - he's not USAPA and will give you a straight answer.

HP,
They do actually owe us at least the step increases, If not what exactly does the freeze mean. Oh they will spin it any way they can to try and say they don't. Remember this is the same Johnny O style mgt group that is using an expired loa 5 against LAS. They simply can't be trusted at any point. Putting the NIC aside, this is the exact reason the east would be reluctant to sign an agreement now, the ink wouldn't even be dry before they re-nig and interpret in their favor. Look at the Kirby, the offer parity plus 3%, what does that mean. The east 75/76, and 330's are the highest paying types on either side. Does that mean the west goes to east scale or could it mean the east drops down to west scale. They do like everyone to be the same. I could see it now, "OH thats not how we interpret parity". Screwed again. The Nic will take care of it self, we have much larger eggs to fry. I'll be happy to stay where I am for now, and it doesn't have anything to do with the NIC as the driver.