US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[HPDriver]

Just a quick thought/question, Loa 93 states loa84 pay rates frozen/then reduced 18%. The 18% reduction now becomes the floor. 12/31/2009 last day of pay freeze. If the 18% still remains the floor(which mgt. thinks) and no freeze, the small % increases year over year should still happen. Not sure if we would get it all at once, or small increases as what was scheduled if no loa 93 exsisted. I'm not sure how this will play out, but I think that at the very least we should get those small step increases. I think mgt. feels we shouldn't even get those, but I think their wrong.

Actually, you're wrong.

You east guys need to ask someone who knows this stuff instead of speculating on what may or may not happen.

The rates you're under now are the rates you'll remain under until a new contract is voted onto the property.

Why don't you call your Grievance Committee Chair? Or at least a rep? I'd probably call TP so that she could tell you what she thinks your chances are of winning the grievance.

BTW, that doesn't start until Feb 1. Add a few months for the arb to come back with something and you're looking at the fall at the earliest.

 

[end_of_alpa]

We do have it figured out. YES we understand you have a vote YES so do I. It is a single vote nothing more. And by the sounds of it that is the only thing that you have.

No one but the individual controls the votes so first I would say that is overstated that “we control the votes“. Unless you are admitting some sort of fraud or intimidation of the voters.

Bottom line: The courts are not irrelevant. So that tells me though that you are all beginning to understand that the Ninth is going to rule in our favor. Otherwise you would have told us how important the appeal is. So you are down to a single vote.

What you and most of the east pilots are looking at is a very narrow view. The court is just one piece of this entire deal. There are many events that can change. We could have a merger very soon which makes your vote irrelevant. The company could declare bankruptcy and change the rules of the game. The judge could get sick of the delays and change the rules of the game. After the massive east sick out the company could get an injunction or fines against USAPA. That will change the game. After this little temper tantrum Doug could finally have enough of the east and start placing airplanes on the west. He could transfer the rest of the 190’s to the west. Furlough east pilots recall west pilots.

Still want to vote no?

Have you figured it out yet?

Oh, one other thing:

This is why pilots do not deserve a union...they deserve a HANDLER!!! US Airways is NOT a defendant in the ADDINGTON case....ONLY USAPA. Ergo, by asking Wake/federal courts to negiotiate (judge could get sick of the delays and change the rules of the game) IN LEIU OF A UNION I would say to you you better be careful what you wish for because if you preail ALL LABOR UNIONS are at risk of federal court injuntions and interference.

This is why pilots shouldn't be allowed to FLY AIRPLANES!!!!

Because a guy like this wants Wake (federal court) to negotiate a collective bargaining agreement in court we will all be employment at will in any case and the company will prevail. That is REALLY what the judiciary wants.

See you in LAS....NOT!!

 

[flypg]

He didn't say he liked it, He said he was one of the few that believed binding is binding. He was ok with dumping Alpa and a shot at changing the Nicolau award. But that hasn't really worked out very well. So now its time for money.

NYC says this is BS. He and the others on here seem to call BS on anything they don't seem to like. But truly they know that Senior guys will vote for money. Always have and always will. usapa knows this as well and for that reason there hasn't been a vote on a contract. It just may pass!! they knew this since the summer of 07'. Wilson Polling of east pilots told them this.

It's not BS but if you need to look at it that way to reconcile reality, be my guest.


Flip

OK. Money then. How much would it take ? and is avail ? or obtainable ? an 86 or earlier never furloughed, around 50 years old would give up 900 or so numbers ?
The seniors may but alot are drawing PBGC military etc. Attrition starts in less than 3 years and LOA 93 arbitration is in a few months.
Never said it was BS, but the reality is different than yours. Sorry.

 

[Ardenian]

Just a quick thought/question, Loa 93 states loa84 pay rates frozen/then reduced 18%. The 18% reduction now becomes the floor. 12/31/2009 last day of pay freeze. If the 18% still remains the floor(which mgt. thinks) and no freeze, the small % increases year over year should still happen. Not sure if we would get it all at once, or small increases as what was scheduled if no loa 93 exsisted. I'm not sure how this will play out, but I think that at the very least we should get those small step increases. I think mgt. feels we shouldn't even get those, but I think their wrong.

So where's my pay raise?

 

[flypg]

Actually, you're wrong.

You east guys need to ask someone who knows this stuff instead of speculating on what may or may not happen.

The rates you're under now are the rates you'll remain under until a new contract is voted onto the property.

Why don't you call your Grievance Committee Chair? Or at least a rep? I'd probably call TP so that she could tell you what she thinks your chances are of winning the grievance.

BTW, that doesn't start until Feb 1. Add a few months for the arb to come back with something and you're looking at the fall at the earliest.

Of course they dont want to pay ! However, it seems simple contract law. They are several versions that I have heard. IMO, the intent matters. LOA 93 gives MGMT five years of frozen rates plus an additional 18% reduction with a start and an end date. They seem to have flip-flop on their position once already. " We didnt mean it that way". Well, that's too bad, you wrote it that way. Now, they want to argue something else. We all know an arbitrator can and will interpret things their own way. See the IAM change of control or the recent AA minimum pilot positions. Or Nicolau......Lastly the rumours of TP not certain of the outcome, remember, she is not a lawyer.

LOA 93 is pretty clear. They must pay LOA 84 rates or at the very least should unless JG and his merry band of thieves find another magic bullet and a willing arbitrator

 

[HPDriver]

However, it seems simple contract law.

There is your first mistake. There is no such thing.

IMO, the intent matters.

And how do you define intent? Each side refers to their notes, questions the principals, and presents their version of "intent."

We all know an arbitrator can and will interpret things their own way.

That is correct. And the arbitrator will also look at what kind of financial burden his decision will place on the company. The burden of proof is with USAPA and that's a tough hill to climb. If there is even a small doubt as to intent, USAPA will lose.

Lastly the rumours of TP not certain of the outcome, remember, she is not a lawyer.

No, she's not. But she is familiar with what it takes to present a successful arbitration and the obstacle that must be overcome. As I stated above, the burden is with USAPA to prove that snapbacks were the intent of the language.

With Parker stating that this merger never would have happened if that were the case, you can bet he had some pretty smart people looking at that language with a fine-tooth comb. I doubt USAPA will be able to prove them wrong.

LOA 93 is pretty clear.

Its not. And you, in your post, wrote "They are several versions that I have heard.." If you've heard several versions, then its far from clear.

They must pay LOA 84 rates or at the very least should...

You're expecting the company to lay out money that you thing they "should" pay?!!? I wouldn't hold my breath.

And BTW, if you want an example of "simple" contract language, I have one. The company is closing LAS using an LOA that expired 5 years ago. It is VERY black and white as to the expiration of the LOA. The number is right there (18 months). But guess what, they think it still applies.

Good luck with the snapbacks.

 

[HPDriver]

This just in:

Over 100 cancelled east flights by mid afternoon today. WE MEAN BUSINESS!!!

WOW. When will east get their deserved raise? Contractually it is owed to us.
In black and white

Do you realize it is known fact that the company does monitor this board?

Or maybe you don't. I can't believe you'd post that crap here.

Utter stupidity.

 

[end_of_alpa]

He didn't say he liked it, He said he was one of the few that believed binding is binding. He was ok with dumping Alpa and a shot at changing the Nicolau award. But that hasn't really worked out very well. So now its time for money.

NYC says this is BS. He and the others on here seem to call BS on anything they don't seem to like. But truly they know that Senior guys will vote for money. Always have and always will. usapa knows this as well and for that reason there hasn't been a vote on a contract. It just may pass!! they knew this since the summer of 07'. Wilson Polling of east pilots told them this.

It's not BS but if you need to look at it that way to reconcile reality, be my guest.


Flip

Actually, I was THERE as an "agency fee objector". So now listen to me VERY CAREFULLY (for the benefit of those who can't spell):

I was called SEVERAL TIMES by the Wilson pollers.

The question was asked, in essense, if there was enough M-O-N-E-Y and P-R-O-T-E-C-T-I-O-N-S in the CBA would you V-O-T-E for the CBA?

I said, first, that I was an "agency fee objector" and could not vote one way or the other. However, I DID say that IF I COULD VOTE, it would depend on protections and money.

FACT: The West wanted IMMEDIATE implementation of the Nicolau award with a new CBA....the overwhelming majority of E-A-S-T pilots TOLD THE WILSON POLLERS N-O! (I asked THEM when they called, FOUR TIMES!!!...they told me my opinion matched the O-V-E-R-W-H-E-L-M-I-N-G M-A-J-O-R-I-T-Y!!!)

Secondly, the E-A-S-T pilots K-N-E-W that the company would NOT offer enough money to make up for the Nicolau award. Why? Because the company S-A-I-D IT!!

I said that, absent protections and money, you would N-E-V-E-R get the majority to for for a CBA for quite some time.

Look where we are now! Am I right, or am I right?

The senior guys BETTER V-O-T-E for for DOH or I for one will N-E-V-E-R support them getting any pay raise they think THEY deserve without me. Remember, I'm typed, current, ATP with a first class medical and with plenty of flight time to act as P-I-C.

You all better keep that in mind. AOL/Onion pilots will do the same to the senior pilots on the East. Hence the Nicolau award. Keep your friends, close, and your enemies closer. AOL/Onion pilots are the enemy to the Senior pilots. I K-N-O-W they know that.

This has been a PUBLIC service message on behalf of all O-N-I-O-N West pilots everywhere. You may now resume the loss of your domicles and jobs.

 

[cubfan]

Actually, you're wrong.

You east guys need to ask someone who knows this stuff instead of speculating on what may or may not happen.

The rates you're under now are the rates you'll remain under until a new contract is voted onto the property.

Why don't you call your Grievance Committee Chair? Or at least a rep? I'd probably call TP so that she could tell you what she thinks your chances are of winning the grievance.

BTW, that doesn't start until Feb 1. Add a few months for the arb to come back with something and you're looking at the fall at the earliest.
[/quotthe question e]
HP,
I could be wrong but who knows. I will be writing my rep soon and asking questions. Just this morning I looked over the LOA's. In the 2002 restructing agreement it set the floor as the base rate. It was then those rates that were frozen then reduced 18%. So the increases of 1% in year 05/06 along with 2% in years 07/08 and 3% there after would not happen. So lets assume the no snap back and that remains the floor. The increases starting in 05 become unfrozen, and at the very least should occur. I know the company will try to weasel out of those also. Now my take is those increases should have taken place in those years listed, but didn't because of the freeze. Well the freeze is over now, they owe us at least that, the question is all at once or 11% or over the next 6 years same 11%. So when you say "your wrong" yours is just an assumption, you really don't know. I'm basing mine on facts as I read them. Have a good day

 

[HPDriver]

Well the freeze is over now, they owe us at least that

They owe you nothing. And they're doing everything to hoard money.

I wouldn't waste my time going to the reps. They have a tendency to tell their constituency what they want to hear. See what TP has to say first. Talk to DH as well - he's not USAPA and will give you a straight answer.

 

[Pi brat]

P.S. To all of the other employees here at disaster airways. Since the east pilots think they have the right to disrupt everyone’s lives. I would like to apologize for the east pilots, for the delays and cancelled flights and all of the extra work this has caused. It is unfair to the gate agents, res agents and the passengers that you were forced to make up for a temper tantrum by the east pilots. That is extra work you should not have had to do.

DO NOT APOLOGIZE FOR ME!!!!!!! It is not your responsibility or right. I show up when and where I am supposed to, and do a great job. Some do not, but most of this mess is management's fault, not mine.

Your post is an insult to the majority of east pilots that are serving their customers as they should.

 

[nic4us]

an 86 or earlier never furloughed, around 50 years old would give up 900 or so numbers ?

You do realize, that the West pilot one below your hypothetical east pilot lost 1400 numbers? Further, that the 86 hires relative seniority increased about 8% while that same West pilot, a 96 hire ( 10 year spread) relative seniority decreased 3%, a 11% gain between the two.

Yeah, maybe you are right about an 86 hire ( basically, the bottom half the list) so lets look at an 85 A320 capt. He gives up 600 numbers, moves up in relative seniority 10%, can easily hold 320 capt PHX, his West counterpart hired in 90 ( 5 year spread) lost 1300 numbers moved down 2%.

Ok, lets look at an 84 hire. Gives up 300 numbers gains 20% relative, is placed next to a West guy( hired in 87, 3 year spread) who lost 1000 numbers, lost 10% relative. There are over 900 east pilots on the Nic that fall above this level. Almost 1/3rd of the east active pilots at the merger date.

Looks to me as though there are about 1000 east pilots who got a pretty good deal with the Nic. Many have already retired I am sure, but so have West pilots senior to those 700-800 east pilots that remain at the top.

So it would not surprise me at all to find an east commuter, who actually would like to see Nic implementation, so they could get to PHX and change their commute to a simple drive across town, or a one hour flight, departing every 30 mins, from SAN, LAX. Actually, I have already met 4.

 

[MustangSally]

DO NOT APOLOGIZE FOR ME!!!!!!! It is not your responsibility or right. I show up when and where I am supposed to, and do a great job. Some do not, but most of this mess is management's fault, not mine.

Your post is an insult to the majority of east pilots that are serving their customers as they should.

ALL of the mess is managements fault. What brilliant over paid VP made the decision to park E190's move the time to the AB's knowing that they did not have enough pilots trained on the AB to cover the time.

 

[nic4us]

DO NOT APOLOGIZE FOR ME!!!!!!! It is not your responsibility or right. I show up when and where I am supposed to, and do a great job. Some do not, but most of this mess is management's fault, not mine.

Your post is an insult to the majority of east pilots that are serving their customers as they should.

I sincerely hope that a distinction can be made between pilot professionals, such as yourself, and those who have let their emotions get the better of them, if management decides to blame their mistakes on members of our pilot group.

 

[AWE Dog]

You do realize, that the West pilot one below your hypothetical east pilot lost 1400 numbers? Further, that the 86 hires relative seniority increased about 8% while that same West pilot, a 96 hire ( 10 year spread) relative seniority decreased 3%, a 11% gain between the two.

Yeah, maybe you are right about an 86 hire ( basically, the bottom half the list) so lets look at an 85 A320 capt. He gives up 600 numbers, moves up in relative seniority 10%, can easily hold 320 capt PHX, his West counterpart hired in 90 ( 5 year spread) lost 1300 numbers moved down 2%.

Ok, lets look at an 84 hire. Gives up 300 numbers gains 20% relative, is placed next to a West guy( hired in 87, 3 year spread) who lost 1000 numbers, lost 10% relative. There are over 900 east pilots on the Nic that fall above this level. Almost 1/3rd of the east active pilots at the merger date.

Looks to me as though there are about 1000 east pilots who got a pretty good deal with the Nic. Many have already retired I am sure, but so have West pilots senior to those 700-800 east pilots that remain at the top.

So it would not surprise me at all to find an east commuter, who actually would like to see Nic implementation, so they could get to PHX and change their commute to a simple drive across town, or a one hour flight, departing every 30 mins, from SAN, LAX. Actually, I have already met 4.

You forgot to mention in your example. that your east 84 to 86 hire may never check out as a 330 capatin as a result of 300 to 600 younger west pilots placed ahead them. And you scream career expectations?