US Pilots' Labor Discussion 10/27-11/?

[lynyrdskynyrd]

You got me there skynyrd, USAPA pretty much got its hat handed to them in AZ court. But it is a valid comparison, procedure wise. USAPA also got its hat handed to them by Hemenway on dues issues in August of 08. As I pointed out earlier, take a look at how that turned out.

Have a Happy Halloween,

RR

I believe you are trying to tell me that usapa may ultimately prevail in the DFR case, like they did with dues/fees collection? It's possible, but I doubt it. Usapa ultimately had the right to dues or fees, and that issue ultimately worked out in it's favor, and it's no surprise that it did.

Usapa doesn't have the same legs to stand on regarding Nic and the DFR.

 

[BoeingBoy]

and we can agree to disagree.

And that's something we can agree on.

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

Wasn't one of the compaints about ALPA that they wanted the money but didn't care about the person?

No. The complaint was that ALPA obstructed the right of the members to vote, denied them the right to vote after promising to allow membership votes, and even overthrew the votes of the pilots.

How dare you accuse ALPA of not caring! Surely you got all those letters and phone calls from the ALPA Concerned Pilots Committee. ALPA cared about me deeply.. I have a very nice stack of love letters from ALPA declaring how much they cared about me. I puts me in my happy place to know how much they truly cared about me, and to what lengths they went to to prove it.

No complaints at all about how much they cared. Not one.

 

[Phoenix]

With all due respect, you have to be kidding me. Fuel to the fire? All a pilot has to do is pay another 6% in dues instead of fees and that pilot gets full voting rights. Go ahead someday and start your own union, and give your "non members" voting representation. There is no requirement from the government that non members be given any voting rights, say so, or even numerical representation. They are foolish in my opinion for not participating. All the union is required to do is look after their contractual and representational needs (discipline, benefits, etc.)

USAPA is a labor union, not a glee club, and membership is the name of the game. Take a read of Helen Witt's decsion in the Suzi arbitration, and see how even she grasped the folly of pilots claiming certain rights as non members. She did not buy any of the arguments from the non member West pilots.

RR

"Something for nothing" is not an uncommon dream.

ALPA wanted to collect dues without holding membership votes. If someone doesn't have an issue with that, why wouldn't they be in favor of "membership votes" without dues?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Surely you got all those letters and phone calls from the ALPA Concerned Pilots Committee.

Nope - I was retired before that started.

No. The complaint was that ALPA obstructed the right of the members to vote, denied them the right to vote after promising to allow membership votes, and even overthrew the votes of the pilots.

While that was a complaint (although somewhat erroneous - after the MEC passed the resolution providing a vote on "pay and working conditions" they pretty well fulfilled that promise) it wasn't the only complaiint.

Jim

 

[USA320Pilot]

Pension Investigation Committee member Robert Witt told me earlier this week:

- USAPA is paying their attorney Mark Butler $100,000 per week.

- The new assessment will be $45 per month for one-year, but Butler believes it will take two more years to complete the lawsuit.

- Witt believes there will be at least two more years of assessments and the average cost will be $600-$800 per year in assessments per East pilot.

Today USAPA notified the pilot balloting will open on Monday for a $540 12-month assessment for the pension investigation. If you add up the previous $270 assessment, the new $540 assessment, and the assessment Witt indicated will come next year the total assessment amount will be $1,350, if no other assessments are created.

During this time USAPA will pay Mark Butler, who I heard is a relative of a USAPA official, almost $3 million.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[aquagreen73s]

Today USAPA notified the pilot balloting will open on Monday for a $540 12-month assessment for the pension investigation. If you add up the previous $270 assessment, the new $540 assessment, and the assessment Witt indicated will come next year the total assessment amount will be $1,350, if no other assessments are created.

In all liklihood there will be at least one more assessment in '09 beyond what you mentioned: the $1.8 million for West attorney's fees for the DFR litigation. Judge Wake should have a ruling out in a month or so, just in time for Christmas. Then in 2010 we'll get an result from the 9th Circuit, with those costs likely being awarded as well. Then in the Spring there's the damages trial. Then there's the lost wages for the past two years. It's gettin' mighty expensive being a US Airways pilot. Between O'Bama tax increases and all of these union assessments, it won't be long before we're working for free!

 

[LSS]

Pension Investigation Committee member Robert Witt told me earlier this week:

During this time USAPA will pay Mark Butler, who I heard is a relative of a USAPA official, almost $3 million.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Wrong on two counts USA 320... first the attorney's name is not Mark Butler... it is David Butler... and secondly, he is no relation to the individual you insinuated.

You should check your facts before you post!

 

[traderjake]

Wrong on two counts USA 320... first the attorney's name is not Mark Butler... it is David Butler... and secondly, he is no relation to the individual you insinuated.

You should check your facts before you post!

Who cares what his name is. How much are we paying him?

 

[LSS]

Who cares what his name is. How much are we paying him?

Why don't you ask your rep?

 

[cleardirect]

Who cares what his name is, how much are we paying him?

Why don't you ask your rep?

The answer is, to much. Has anyone asked what the rate of return on the "investment" is? It is a $2-3 million group hug to feel better about what happened.

There is no restoration of the pension, there is no bigger check coming. This a feel good thing nothing more.

 

[Megasnoop]

So what? I never expected the west pilots to do anything different than what has already transpired. And, except for the high-school pranksters, I don't begrudge the west pilots their day in court. If this guy is the co-founder of Leonidas, it sounds to me like he at least has leadership initiative.

Your right, driver. Who cares? They'll get their day in appeals court, just like us. We knew he was a Leo co-founder when he ran. If he participates good ideas, we need him. Not that I was at the BPR meeting or anything, but only one Rep knew he was a Leo founder. The officers knew, but didn’t want to make an issue. His treatment didn't change after word got around. His update was very classy. He had a forum and he chose to use it wisely. A big difference from what LeCar and Stocks were putting out. His second update was even better (with permission from the BPR to pass alone): "They will soon be shocked as we move toward a unified group that they believed would never materialize. Their free ride is coming to an end shortly, even as they dreamed it would last forever." Right on, brother. You can read the entire update on the USAPA website.

Only if the PHX members in good standing elect him. And PHX doesn't get an extra rep simply because LAS closes.

If PHX wants 3rd vote, all they need is 1,000 members. Their getting close. Article 29s produced dues, so why not join?

But, then again, the shoes did work for Dorothy.

"Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore." Dorothy Gale, 1902

 

[USA320Pilot]

Traderjake,

Thanks for the correction on the name. I was up late last night and I worked a long day. I apologize for my error(s).

The attorney's name is David Butler and Pension Investigation Committee member is Mark Butler. And, I made another error too. USAPA is paying their Pension Investigation attorney $100,000 per month not per week.

Regadless, Robert Witt told me the Pension Investgation is going to cost pilots the $270 they voted to pay and another $600-$800 per year for the next two years to fund this litigation. It's too bad USAPA is not telling the pilots the truth on their assessment plans in that even more assessments are planned for the future.

Witt estimated the total assessment estimate would cost the East pilots about $1,470 to $1,870.

When I asked Witt what USAPA's objective was he said to have the court order the PBGC to do an investigation into fund manager transactions and to have the court order the PBGC to pay PC4 pilots the PBGC's age 65 benefit at age 60.

It's not to try to recover the DB Plan as some pilots mistakingly assume.

Furthermore, I agree with Aquagreen in that the East pilots be further assessed for the following items?

1. Judge Wake is expected to make a ruling in about one month on whether or not the East pilots will pay $1.8 million for West legal fees in the Addington trial, which could be about a $600 East pilot assessment.

2. In the first quarter of 2010 the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals will make its ruling and the West pilots are expected to seek legal fees paid by USAPA East members here as well.

3. Next spring the damages trial will begin with lost wages awarded from May 3, 2007 with the potential for East pilots to be assessed for this too.

At least the East pilots have their lump sum payment on January 10, 2010 to pay the West pilots, if required, instead of the money coming from their monthly reduced earnings after the furloughs.

And, with President Obama lobbying for tax increases (if passed by Congress) to pay for the federal deficit and health care; along with all of these union assessments, it won't be long before pilots will be working for far less than they do today.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Freighterguynow]

During this time USAPA will pay Mark Butler, who I heard is a relative of a USAPA official, almost $3 million.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

Your Point ?

Maybe we should have an 'opt out ' no need to pay/ no part of the recovery.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Your Point ?

Maybe we should have an 'opt out ' no need to pay/ no part of the recovery.

That is a great solution. I'll bet everyone would opt in. As a member of the "Vaughn Group" lawsuit still pending its way through the federal court system, I find pilots all the time asking if there is any way for them to join as a defendant in that suit. Unfortunately, that door closed years ago.

Personally, I would will gladly pay the assessments even if the chances of recovering the DB were slim to none, which indeed they may be. My goal is to see the phrase "convicted felon" attached to the name David Siegel, and a few others....possibly ALPA officials.

That alone would be worth the assessments. In fact, I'd pay double to see that!

And, for the westies who find it incumbent upon themselves to weigh in on this matter...keep you nose out of our business. We're not asking, or expecting, you to pay one cent toward this effort. You never had the cojones to even GET yourselves a DB plan, so how could you possibly understand our situation. Butt OUT!