US Pilots' Labor Discussion 10/27-11/?

[USA320Pilot]

I think USAPA's lawsuit against the PBGC is a long shot, a very long shot. If USAPA or the East pilots think they can bully or even force the PBGC, the IRS, the SEC, the DOJ Bankruptcy Court, Towers-Perrine, and US Airways to force the governmnt to change legislation to pay PC4 pilots the age 65 benefit at age 60 or to do an investigation into fund transactions I have swamp land I want to broker to sell you.

The DB Plan is gone and was lost when John Davis and the other hardline union leaders (the same type of people who run USAPA today) refused to listen to every ALPA National R&I advisor and every MEC R&I Committee member to freeze the plan and create an "A" (DB Plan) and "B" (DC Plan) per Seth Schofields offer.

According to an official with direct knowledge of the DB Plan problem "the question isn’t really whether the pension was under funded. The real problem is that in 1990 when the IRS came out with FASB 106 which required all DB plans to account for the liability of their DB plan with a 20 year amortization. The gov’t thought they were doing a good thing by forcing companies to fund their plans."

"Instead what they did was set up a system of inevitable failure of most if not all DB plans. Prior to 1990 there was no amortization schedule on DB plans, they were considered on-going plans and as such the funding requirements and liability requirements where reasonably absorbed by most corporations."

"With the advent of FASB 106 the government set up a situation where if the country was doing well then the stock market was doing well and your company was doing well and there was no need to fund your pension plans. However, if the economic wind turned against you and the country went into a recession and the stock market went down your company would be hit with an unreasonable and in some cases a back breaking funding requirement. Now everyone knew these plans would enter into a temporary funding."

"ALPA and all the industry knew about this problem when it was first proposed. ALPA and the ATA fought the gov’t and tried to get FASB 106 modified or thrown out. The IRS refused to budge."

I wish USAPA and the Pension Investigation Committee would tell the pilots the history and all of the information to what really happened to the DB Plan so pilots do not throw away another $1,500 in hard earned money.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[nycbusdriver]

Speaking of spending money, how many East pilots know about the Cactus 18 suit?

I have to admit I have not paid too much attention to this, but I was wrong to do so. This is another incredible USAPA action that is flat out wrong, hurtful, and vindictive. This suit is where the union is suing approxinately 24 West pilots for millions of dollars for allegedly conspiring to bring down USAPA. For most of these pilots their crime was a post on a web board and as result of venting their families have been through hell. I have been told so far USAPA has spent $249,000 in dues on this case!

USAPA needs to drop this case. All the case is doing is harming pilots and their families and fueling the anger of the West and now some East pilots. I suggest all pilots contact USAPA and tell them to drop the case and stop waisting pilot dues.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

USAPA tried every means to get the nonsense to stop. They threatened legal action if it continued. It continued. And they sued. Why not take it to the end? The pilots involved made their own beds, let them lie in them. They could have stopped their nonsense far short of legal action, but they thought they were dealing with an ALPA-like paper tiger and decided to call USAPA's bluff. They lose. Tough. No one to blame but themselves.\

USAPA takes the hard line a lot. They pull no punches, but they broadcast their intentions well before they launch the blow. This is not ALPA; "sternly worded letters" are no longer the extent of union action. It took a full page ad in the USA Today to make the company understand this. That, too, was money well spent.

 

[USA320Pilot]

Nybusdriver,

I agree "USAPA takes the hard line a lot" just like ALPA with the same people in charge of USAPA that ran ALPA. That approach is working so well with the pilots not obtaining any contract improvements in USAPA's 18 months of existence, assessments that are sapping pilot income, and a lot of pilot against pilot litigation that is creating even less take home pay.

Yep...USAPA's vindictive approach against the Cactus 18 and all of their other work is really improving the lives of the pilots.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[Reed Richards]

I wish USAPA and the Pension Investigation Committee would tell the pilots the history and all of the information to what really happened to the DB Plan so pilots do not throw away another $1,500 in hard earned money.

Regards,

USA320Pilot
[/quote]

They have been doing exactly that. Your fatigue issues seem to be creeping into all your posts, I would suggest you get some rest.

The members in good standing at USAPA will weigh the facts and vote with their pocketbooks on the pension investigation. Hopefully, they will continue to get their information from the pension committee and not on this forum (100K per week, nepotism conspiracy theories, wrong names.... give me a break)

RR

 

[Reed Richards]

Yep...USAPA's vindictive approach against the Cactus 18 and all of their other work is really improving the lives of the pilots.

Regards,

USA320Pilot
[/quote]

Ah yes..the "where is my pony?" line. That seem to be the playground retort of choice when faced with the truth.

Truth is you have not been paying attention or voting. I have already laid out the scenario as to why there is a Cactus 18 in the first place, and will not do so again. It is both interesting and frightening you are only now becoming aware of this issue. You are still not informed.

RR

 

[USA320Pilot]

Another interesting point on suing the PBGC is the East pilot group called the "Soaring Eagles" and their recent legal battle with the PBGC.

These retirees were all group PC1 or PC2 pilots, but they thought they got short changed by the PBGC. What did the Soaring Eagles do. Thye sued the PBGC and paid and paid and paid for legal fees, and so far at least, they've actually harmed themselves, not to mention they wasted money and had a lot of self induced personal anguish. After the PBGC's "investigation", the PBGC concluded the Soaring Eagles had been overpaid. So now the PBGC is in a collection effort and the retirees are actually having to defend themselves for something they initiated.

Another angry lot of pilots who harm them selves, just like USAPA and its former ALPA hardliners continue to do to all US Airways pilots, East and West.

The fact is, the company was bankrupt and the PBGC wanted its money, in order to keep retirement benefits ongoing. And, anyone buying the company would first have to settle with the PBGC and then make the offer or buy out. The DB plan was not going to be saved and USAPA's efforts are to force the PBGC to investigate fund transaction and to pay PC4 pilots more money and just like with the Soaring Eagles this is not going to happen.

As far as the DB Plan the pilot group had two choices: terminate the pension or watch the company liquidated.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

USA320Pilot said:
Traderjake,
Thanks for the correction on the name. I was up late last night and I worked a long day. I apologize for my error(s).
And, I made another error too. USAPA is paying their Pension Investigation attorney $100,000 per month not per week.
Regadless
Regards,
USA320Pilot

Why are pilots so fatigued? Overflying cap are they? LAHSO ring a bell? If you need intervention on landing rollout perhaps calling in sick is a better option or stay off web boards, fly less and get some rest or better yet, retire.

regardless regards

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

USAPA tried every means to get the nonsense to stop. They threatened legal action if it continued. It continued. And they sued. Why not take it to the end? The pilots involved made their own beds, let them lie in them. They could have stopped their nonsense far short of legal action, but they thought they were dealing with an ALPA-like paper tiger and decided to call USAPA's bluff. They lose. Tough. No one to blame but themselves.\

USAPA takes the hard line a lot. They pull no punches, but they broadcast their intentions well before they launch the blow. This is not ALPA; "sternly worded letters" are no longer the extent of union action. It took a full page ad in the USA Today to make the company understand this. That, too, was money well spent.

I hate to break it to you, but all that webposting is still going on, you are even participating in it.

 

[boeingplt]

....As far as the DB Plan the pilot group had two choices: terminate the pension or watch the company liquidated.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

This is a perfect example of the mentality that has propagated a relationship with Management whereby they take advantage of any mechanism they can find in order to put a gun to our head and threaten to pull the trigger.

The grossly fundamental misunderstanding which this mentality represents lies in the fact that the officers of the Company have a responsibility to facilitate its survival and that if they pulled the trigger with the gun against your head they would be taking their lives as well and failing in their responsibility.

Bottom line is that if we don't give them the money they are after, regardless of the stated crisis, they will find it elsewhere of find the means to do without.

Everything that I see tells me that the majority of our Pilots understand this. I am not at all surprised to see that you don't but thought it might be useful to point out that you are in the minority - this forum is not a reliable measure BTW.

 

[Metroyet]

USAPA tried every means to get the nonsense to stop. They threatened legal action if it continued. It continued. And they sued. Why not take it to the end? The pilots involved made their own beds, let them lie in them. They could have stopped their nonsense far short of legal action, but they thought they were dealing with an ALPA-like paper tiger and decided to call USAPA's bluff. They lose. Tough. No one to blame but themselves.\

USAPA takes the hard line a lot. They pull no punches, but they broadcast their intentions well before they launch the blow. This is not ALPA; "sternly worded letters" are no longer the extent of union action. It took a full page ad in the USA Today to make the company understand this. That, too, was money well spent.

I grow weary of this adolescent tough talk. It's so grandiose and hyperbolic that it would be hysterical if it weren't so nauseating. Grown men... USAPA is a preordained failure. It takes more that misdirected anger and shouting to be an effective leader...that's why the company has no respect for anything USAPA wants to accomplish. The company won't even discuss providing international crews with dedicated meals.

That's how much fear the company has of USAPA..."NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!"

 

[USA320Pilot]

Boeingplt,

I attended 3 of the 4 Bankruptcy Court hearings on the East DB Plan termination. US Airways like Delta, Northwest, and United all had their DB Pension plans terminated as a requirement of POR. The Creditors Committee emphatically stated they would not endorse the POR and then the company would ahve likely seen its formal reorganization become a Chapter 7 liquidation if the plan was not terminated. I heard the testimony first hand - to suggest otherwise is nonsense.

ALPA R&I did a fantastic job negotiating the Target Benenfit Plan as a DB Plan replacement designed to pay a 30-year Captain a $1 million lump sum and a lucrative Equity Plan where the pilots obtained 19.33% of the company. What happenend? Following this agreement the hardliners regained control of the MEC and negotiated LOA 93 and gave up the Target Benefit Plan and Equity. Now where are these hardline type of leaders? Thye are in charge of USAPA where they continue to break campaign promises, enrich them self, harm other pilots, and assess the pilots over-and-over again.

Since USAPA took office all the pilots have experienced is a reduced standard of living with more furloughs, downsizing, and less take home pay.

Regards,

USA320Pilot

 

[cleardirect]

Personally, I would will gladly pay the assessments even if the chances of recovering the DB were slim to none, which indeed they may be. My goal is to see the phrase "convicted felon" attached to the name David Siegel, and a few others....possibly ALPA officials.

That alone would be worth the assessments. In fact, I'd pay double to see that!

And, for the westies who find it incumbent upon themselves to weigh in on this matter...keep you nose out of our business. We're not asking, or expecting, you to pay one cent toward this effort. You never had the cojones to even GET yourselves a DB plan, so how could you possibly understand our situation. Butt OUT!

Seriously? Do you really think that anyone is going to be convicted of anything because of this little adventure? I read the PBGC complaint I guess I missed the part that is demanding criminal trials.

"Butt out", sorry but it was USAPA that drug us into this. It was the USAPA leadership that decided to allow the east to vote on the change in our contract for our age 58. They set the precedence so we do get to vote on your business. All members in good standing right. Isn't that what you have all been telling us? Join and participate, vote that USAPA represents ALL us airways pilots.

Well this is just another vote for all us good union pilots. But I guess now the truth come out USAPA does not really want west participation just the money. Keep our nose out of your business right, that is what you said.

With the current leadership driving this disaster toward the inevitable crash that is coming. You east guys are going to be begging for ideas and answers to dig this mess from the wreckage. Because at this point it is very obvious the Cleary and gang are flat out of options and ideas. The best Cleary could come up with was he was going to DISCUSS new management. Exactly who and what kind of authority does this guy think he has?

I will bring a discussion item to the next Board of Pilot Representatives meeting to determine whether or not to seek new management at US Airways.

Just how does Cleary plan on changing management? An ineffectual vote that holds no sway with anyone, maybe a strongly worded resolution.

This union and its supporters are losing it big time and can not even recognize the pending disaster. The company just closed three bases and plans on furloughing 200 more pilots. What have we heard from the all powerful USAPA yet? Meow from the toothless and de-clawed kitty cat that is USAPA. They can't stop furloughs but now think they can replace management. Where does this come from?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Not to change topics, but I just read on another forum that the company has/is canceling E190 flights for Nov without pay protection while Republic will be flying those flights with E175's. That this started happening before the company announced that they were "finalizing an agreement" to sell the 10 E190's. In other words, the company was giving the flying to Republic and their pilots were bidding on it before the company announced anything to US employees. Anyone know anything.

Jim

 

[Flyz4food]

Not to change topics, but I just read on another forum that the company has/is canceling E190 flights for Nov without pay protection while Republic will be flying those flights with E175's. That this started happening before the company announced that they were "finalizing an agreement" to sell the 10 E190's. In other words, the company was giving the flying to Republic and their pilots were bidding on it before the company announced anything to US employees. Anyone know anything.

Jim

Not only is it happening, the company expects the pilots to make up the time lost.

 

[BoeingBoy]

All I have is the old printed version of the last contract, but it sounds like this would nearly fall under the "substitute equipment" language (although I'd guess the intent of that language is to cover substitutions by other US operated fleet types). Has USAPA filed a grievance yet?

Jim