US Pilots Labor Discussion 10/13-- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[john john]

There is a reason why America West's code was HP.....we are largely reasonably Happy People. Parker will have to eventually have to pony up the bucks to nudge this over the fence (IMHO).

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2001/0611/106.html
AmWest (nyse: AWA - news - people ) almost goes out of its way to cultivate rocky relations with its work force, and employee bile poisons every public interaction. A senior executive at a rival airline says he has never seen a carrier whose approach to workers was so confrontational. "Employees feel they're being used," he says. "It's tough to get them to win one for the Gipper."

AmWest is the kind of employer that fires people on Christmas Eve (500 technicians in early December 1995). It took nearly five years to negotiate a first contract with flight attendants. Pilots, in a fit of pique, deliberately flew extraordinarily fast to burn extra fuel. Arriving early at their destinations, they would circle to kill time. This, says a former AmWest executive, was standard practice.

 

[boeingplt]

Not regarding seniority. That has already been accepted and payed for by the company.

In the last CLT crew news Parker must say three times that they just want the pilots to give them a seniority list and that they don't care if it is in alphabetical order. Now why would he say that if your statement is really the case?

 

[Pi brat]

Yes the BPR, comprised only of angry fo's and hardliners, will do that. I refer to what real line pilots will do. If a reasonable contract is stonewalled by the BPR the real pilots will react. Nice try, though.

I fully believe that the east pilots would pass a GOOD contract with the Nic in it. I do not believe a GOOD enough contract will ever come from this management team, especially with the west working with them.

 

[Pi brat]

The company and usapa are in Federal Court.

Yeah, I guess you could call that negotiations?

Nic4us,

I don't think anyone can dispute that the company has accepted the Nicolau award. The question is, does the TA say it has to be implemented? Does it say it can never be changed? I read it again the other day and didn't see those words.

 

[cleardirect]

Nic4us,

I don't think anyone can dispute that the company has accepted the Nicolau award. The question is, does the TA say it has to be implemented? Does it say it can never be changed? I read it again the other day and didn't see those words.

Do you see the words that the accepted list can be changed?

 

[Metroyet]

Nic4us,

I don't think anyone can dispute that the company has accepted the Nicolau award. The question is, does the TA say it has to be implemented? Does it say it can never be changed? I read it again the other day and didn't see those words.

If ALL THREE parties to the t.a. agree to change a provision...no problem. When the majority uses their numbers like a weapon to steal the representation and the careers of the minority, when they have a dfr to them it's illegal. The t.a. didn't mention this because labor law already speaks to the issue. You also won't find in the t.a. that pissed off pilots CAN'T steal an airplane and sell it to make of for their perceived economic failures....is that legal to do then? By your logic, yes.

 

[luvthe9]

The greedy angry west F/O group has thrown more cash into the toilet with their hysterical Leaonidas "outreach" to the 330 pilots. No, the 330 pilots are not going to sell out their fellow workers.
How much did that cost Leonidas? You just wasted another boatload of cash, urged on by the lawyers who have cost you millions. Desperation at its' finest. Keep the donations coming!

 

[luvthe9]

It goes beyond simple reneging. The East is demanding they be allowed to dictate terms to the west...unfettered, as-brutal-as-they-please. Of course they'll get nowhere with the illegal scheme. It's shocking to see how buried in the sand some of those guys are. Does anybody else find it hysterically ironic that if "seniority is like crewmeals" shouldn't east pilots, at a minimum, actually RECEIVE crew meals? I.O.W. the east failed at negotiating a free sandwich and they think they're going to pull off a heist of this magnitude? HA!

Enjoy those wonderful meals Metro! You eat what you pay for was never a more correct statement.......

 

[767jetz]

Does anybody else find it hysterically ironic that if "seniority is like crewmeals" shouldn't east pilots, at a minimum, actually RECEIVE crew meals?

Me too!

 

[Pi brat]

Do you see the words that the accepted list can be changed?

Do you see that they can't? Can the min fleet change? Can the pay rates change? Can the east get crew meals? Can the west for the first time get some meaningful retirement? Hp fa, which carries more weight with the law, when a contract says it can't be changed for when it doesn't mention it?

It will go which way serves Doug best, IMHO.............

 

[exB717Flyer]

In the last CLT crew news Parker must say three times that they just want the pilots to give them a seniority list and that they don't care if it is in alphabetical order. Now why would he say that if your statement is really the case?

If they don't care if it's in alphabetical order why did they file for declaratory judgment?

This is simple: we all know Parker doesn't care about which list is used. What he cares about is a court injunction stopping a TA from being implemented. Reading the company's filings it's clear they feel deviating from the Nic list will earn them an injunction. Telling the Easties the list will be the Nic list will earn them the wrath of the Easties, for whatever that's worth. At this point is it's a matter of which scares the company more: the courts or the East. Were it not for the efforts of AOL it would be the Easties. For now it's the courts and it will remain so unless something unexpected happens. Honestly, do you really think Judge Silver will tell the company they're free from liability if they deviate from the Nic?

At this point the the law is strongly on the West's side and the company knows it. Read their filings. If the East really wants a new contract just drop your unreasonable demands and you'll have it post haste.

 

[cactusboy53]

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2001/0611/106.html
AmWest (nyse: AWA - news - people ) almost goes out of its way to cultivate rocky relations with its work force, and employee bile poisons every public interaction. A senior executive at a rival airline says he has never seen a carrier whose approach to workers was so confrontational. "Employees feel they're being used," he says. "It's tough to get them to win one for the Gipper."

AmWest is the kind of employer that fires people on Christmas Eve (500 technicians in early December 1995). It took nearly five years to negotiate a first contract with flight attendants. Pilots, in a fit of pique, deliberately flew extraordinarily fast to burn extra fuel. Arriving early at their destinations, they would circle to kill time. This, says a former AmWest executive, was standard practice.

Good for you John John, you appear to have a hobby to keep you busy.

So, let's recap:
1. It took you five days to find a TEN YEAR OLD article that talks about how upset our passengers were in early 2010.
2. The article that you cited speaks more to passenger complaints, than management/employee relations.
3. The CEO of the company at that time is now at Spirit (you know, the airline where an Airbus Captain now makes $186 and hour!!).

Nice. All I read here from my east counter-parts is sheer desperation. The rest of the industry is negotiating contracts (check out AirTran's new rates!!), and all USAPA can do is drive the car off the cliff.

Apparently money, time off, more vacation time, 100% Mech & DH pay, more money, more 401K money, better STD & LTD, and general contract improvements aren't nearly important as the attempted dodge of a final & binding seniority list.

The westies have time & patience to watch you delay, delay, delay. I don't know which way the court will take this, but I do know what is morally & ethically the right way.....it's like keeping your word......so simple, that a cave man gets it.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Do you see that they can't? Can the min fleet change? Can the pay rates change? Can the east get crew meals? Can the west for the first time get some meaningful retirement? Hp fa, which carries more weight with the law, when a contract says it can't be changed for when it doesn't mention it?

It's a rare contract between a company and a union that says that X can't be changed through negotiations, whether the contract is amendable or not - I've never heard of any such language although it may exist in some union contract somewhere. The reason it's rare or nonexistent is that usually the union would want one thing to be everlasting while the company would want something else and the two sides couldn't agree on what would never change. Likewise, there's nothing to prevent one side or the other from unilaterally going beyond what the contract requires - see the triple hitter bonuses which aren't required by the contract. Of course, all of that assumes that any change complies with applicable laws - the company probably couldn't convince a judge that they could pay all men $10/hour more than the contract requires but not women.

It's the "is it legal" part that the company is hoping to determine with the request for declaratory judgment, or maybe better phrased as "can the company escape being sucked into a hybrid DFR suit by doing A, B, or C."

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

... the airline where an Airbus Captain now makes $186 and hour!!

How many West pilots would forget the Nic if the TA had that rate?

 

[BoeingBoy]

How many West pilots would forget the Nic if the TA had that rate?

Probably not that many since they wouldn't make that when pushed back to FO.

Jim