US Pilots Labor Discussion 10/13-- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Pi brat]

Mr. Parker also said, he was embarrassed to talk about it, five years into the merger, I guess that would explain his absence at the PHX crew news.

I guess being the top dog has it's privileges! Parker gets to send Kirby to the PHX training center and not have to listen to the constant whining.

 

[Pi brat]

A. The seniority lists of America West pilots and
US Airways pilots will be integrated in accordance
with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the
Airline Parties for acceptance. The Airline
Parties will accept such integrated seniority list,
including conditions and restrictions, if such list
and the conditions and restrictions comply with
the following criteria:

That is straight from the TA. As you say, there is no doubt that the company has "accepted the list".

The question you seem to be asking is what does "accept" mean.

accept v. to receive something with approval and intention to keep it. This use often arises on the question of accepting a payment which is late or not complete or accepting the "service" (delivery) of legal papers.

Also, this from the explanation portion of the TA regarding the implementaion of the list and showing intent and finality.

This critical provision prevents the merged airline
from using our integrated and final seniority list until
the two pilot groups (i.e., flight operations) are
physically merged and a single amalgamated collective
bargaining agreement exists.

So to answere your questions, I would say, the TA says if the company wants or now usapa wants a single CBA, yes, the Nic has to be implemented. Also, I do not see how it could be changed and yet be regarded as "final".

Nic4us,

This company walks around clearly defined language in our contract EVERY DAY. We have around 400 grievances outstanding. I don't see anything in what you posted that will keep them from doing what they want to do and I believe with all my heart that right now what they want to do is to use every reason to delay a contract. I think if they wanted a contract they would pick a side, move forward and tell the other side "Grieve it or sue me, I don't care!".

 

[BoeingBoy]

That's the same logic for many east pilots to not vote for a contract with the Nic.

Only because of the delay integrating the two groups - delay mostly caused by the change in CBA and fighting the Nic. If the East had accepted the Nic to start with, any going back or forward due to economic conditions or company actions would be shared by both sides. The East wants the gain with none of any potential pain.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

COMPLETE untruth....

While USAPA obviously wants you to believe that, it is hardly "complete untruth" since it's what USAPA's DOH list with C&R's is designed to accomplish - give the minimum protection for West pilots that can pass DFR muster while ensuring that East pilots will be able to take advantage of their new-found seniority in PHX. It'll merely be a slower process than it would be without C&R's.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Only because of the delay integrating the two groups - delay mostly caused by the change in CBA and fighting the Nic. If the East had accepted the Nic to start with, any going back or forward due to economic conditions or company actions would be shared by both sides. The East wants the gain with none of any potential pain.

Jim

Maybe, but who really knows what would have happened? We were at the top of the cycle when the Nic came out, and the entire seniority list was outraged. With the pathetic Kirby proposal on the table, I don't think a joint contract was possible at the time, and absent that the movement would have gone just like it did-the east capturing it's attrition.

I don't want it all, just what I had, and I had the position I have now before the west guy ahead of me on the Nic was hired.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I believe with all my heart that right now what they want to do is to use every reason to delay a contract.

Convince your friend boeingplt then - he thinks everything Parker says is the truth. In the same CLT crew news that boeingplt quoted Parker saying what he did about the list, Parker also said more than once that it is in the company's best interest to put the two groups together under a combined contract. So that must also be the truth since boeingplt wouldn't pick and choose what to consider truth based on whether or not he could use it as ammunition in this little fight...would he?

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Convince your friend boeingplt then - he thinks everything Parker says is the truth. In the same CLT crew news that boeingplt quoted Parker saying what he did about the list, Parker also said more than once that it is in the company's best interest to put the two groups together under a combined contract. So that must also be the truth since boeingplt wouldn't pick and choose what to consider truth based on whether or not he could use it as ammunition in this little fight...would he?

Jim

I believe everyone is drawn to what supports their argument, especially on this board. I've been in that camp, but I don't know boeingplt, so I can't speak for him. I know that guys that put Boeing in there name seem to think they have all the answers!

 

[BoeingBoy]

We were at the top of the cycle when the Nic came out, and the entire seniority list was outraged.

Only the East thought that - who else or what other group has publicly said the same?

With the pathetic Kirby proposal on the table, I don't think a joint contract was possible at the time, and absent that the movement would have gone just like it did-the east capturing it's attrition.

What's that phrase the East likes to use....oh, "negotiating position." The Kirby was a negotiating position. You've been around long enough to know how it works - the company lowballs what they'll accept and the union highballs what it'll accept and the sides meet somewhere in the middle. One would think the company said "Here - take this cause it's all you're going to get" the way the East talks about the Kirby proposal.

I don't want it all, just what I had, and I had the position I have now

I know - you're not alone in saying that while supporting a position that guarantees that it will happen. Not necessarily because you want a west pilot's spot but because there won't be a shortage of those who do. Remember when I was talking about a forloughee coming back to a West 757 Captain job under DOH and you corrected me, saying that a forloughee couldn't do that because there would be all those East pilots senior to the forloughee able to do it first?

The beauty of the Nic, if it had been implimented without all this delay, is that that West pilot 1 number senior to you was already doing the same job you were. So for them to push you down would involve a QOL issue, no different that a CLT A320 captain bidding the CLT 737 above you, not a "I'm suddenly way senior to that guy and want his job instead of being a reserve FO" issue.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

I know that guys that put Boeing in there name seem to think they have all the answers!

What do you mean "think"... Everyone knows that people who fly Boeings are the smartest pilots in the world...

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Only the East thought that - who else or what other group has publicly said the same?



What's that phrase the East likes to use....oh, "negotiating position." The Kirby was a negotiating position. You've been around long enough to know how it works - the company lowballs what they'll accept and the union highballs what it'll accept and the sides meet somewhere in the middle. One would think the company said "Here - take this cause it's all you're going to get" the way the East talks about the Kirby proposal.



I know - you're not alone in saying that while supporting a position that guarantees that it will happen. Not necessarily because you want a west pilot's spot but because there won't be a shortage of those who do. Remember when I was talking about a forloughee coming back to a West 757 Captain job under DOH and you corrected me, saying that a forloughee couldn't do that because there would be all those East pilots senior to the forloughee able to do it first?

The beauty of the Nic, if it had been implimented without all this delay, is that that West pilot 1 number senior to you was already doing the same job you were. So for them to push you down would involve a QOL issue, no different that a CLT A320 captain bidding the CLT 737 above you, not a "I'm suddenly way senior to that guy and want his job instead of being a reserve FO" issue.

Jim

Before USAPA only what the east OR west individually thought mattered, as BOTH had veto power over a joint contract and hence the implementation of a joint seniority list.

I know how contract talks work and I know that when something as bad as the Kirby proposal is passed we are a long way from a contract. Have you seen a contract completed quickly after an offer that bad was passed?

I don't remember saying that, but I will take your word for it. There needs to be protections for a formerly furloughed pilot taking a west captain seat and I think there are, even if the C&Rs are(imho) not good enough right now for DOH.

Beauty of the Nic? You'd have ot drink a lot of beer to call that one beautiful, but you are wrong on that point. by the time Nicolau came out with his list the guy senior to me was not in the same position I was, I was in a much better one. To me that was the ugly part of it-he could see that his theory was wrong.

 

[Pi brat]

What do you mean "think"... Everyone knows that people who fly Boeings are the smartest pilots in the world...

Jim

Well, that includes me! I've flown the 727-200, 737-200,300,400, 757 and 767! But I'm soon back on the Airbus and none too soon. I love flying the Boeings, but he Airbus has them beat in the comfort department.

 

[boeingplt]

Well, that includes me! I've flown the 727-200, 737-200,300,400, 757 and 767! But I'm soon back on the Airbus and none too soon. I love flying the Boeings, but he Airbus has them beat in the comfort department.

727 (Plumber), 737 2-4, 747 Classic, 747-400, 757/767. As for the Bus I have yet to be assimilated

 

[Pi brat]

727 (Plumber), 737 2-4, 747 Classic, 747-400, 757/767. As for the Bus I have yet to be assimilated

It will take a while! I went from 75/76 to A320 and on the first IOE I thought "What have I done?" A short 6 months to a year later I stopped fighting and decided I liked it.

 

[boeingplt]

It will take a while! I went from 75/76 to A320 and on the first IOE I thought "What have I done?" A short 6 months to a year later I stopped fighting and decided I liked it.

Sounds a lot like marriage

 

[Pi brat]

Sounds a lot like marriage

A fitting analogy.