US Pilots Labor Discussion 10/13-- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Phoenix]

Well, go back and read again. Eventually you will get the part about "pinky promises" being final and binding.

The 9th Opinion made it clear that a union's decision to alter it's internal union process during the course of negotiations with the company does not in and of itself constitute a breech of it's duty to fairly represent it's members, neither de facto nor de jure.

It is yet to be determined whether or not the outcome of the union's representative actions during the course of negotiations with the company (one of which is to alter an internal union process to best represent all pilots) results in a failure of DFR. We'll all get to take up that question once the next contract is ratified.

 

[Ames]

Vote NO on any contract that contains it....any more hard questions for today??

NICDOA
NPJB

You only have one vote. Others may think differently. I believe that if/when the company is finally forced to state that they cannot negotiate a contract without the Nic , that there will be NO contract without the Nic - you will have NO choice but to move on. Lots of you hard liners and angry fo's will vote against but others will realize the reality and move on. The rest of you will just have that little meltdown that has been promised over and over again.

 

[Ames]

The beauty of the C/Rs are you get what you brought to the dance.

In various crew news it has been stated that the East is flying 4 percent of what could be considered West flying, while the West is flying 24 percent of what could be considered East flying.

So the West has netted 20 percent of what should be flown by East pilots.

So who should be upset?

JoeFL77

Kirby stated in a recent crew news that east domestic flying is being shifted west to accomodate additional international flying (on the east). The east has also benefited from additional widebodies and E190's since the acquisition, none of which were shared with the west.

So who should be upset?

 

[nic4us]

The 9th Opinion made it clear that a union's decision to alter it's internal union process during the course of negotiations with the company does not in and of itself constitute a breech of it's duty to fairly represent it's members, neither de facto nor de jure.

It is yet to be determined whether or not the outcome of the union's representative actions during the course of negotiations with the company (one of which is to alter an internal union process to best represent all pilots) results in a failure of DFR. We'll all get to take up that question once the next contract is ratified.

That would all be fine and dandy if that fantasy was what was happening here, but it is not.

We will never reach a contract containing any seniority scheme other than the Nic and here is why.

This was not soley an "internal union process". The arbitration was mandated by contractual language between the two pilot groups and the company, as a prerequisite condition, in exchange for modifications to our respective collective bargaining agreements, in order to facilitate the merger.

All parties agreed, signed contracts, and the merger moved forward. The West pilots have a legitimate expectation that those contracts would be honored, and no means of seeking restitution other than forcing all parties to comply with the agreements. We lived up to our part of the bargain, the transaction occured, we cannot get a refund, and neither can the east pilot group.

What usapa would like to do is not negotiate seniority, but, allow the east pilot group to renege on contractual obligations owed to both the company and the West pilots and re-negotiate and already concluded process, that none of the other parties are interested in re-opening.

 

[Metroyet]

That would all be fine and dandy if that fantasy was what was happening here, but it is not.

We will never reach a contract containing any seniority scheme other than the Nic and here is why.

This was not soley an "internal union process". The arbitration was mandated by contractual language between the two pilot groups and the company, as a prerequisite condition, in exchange for modifications to our respective collective bargaining agreements, in order to facilitate the merger.

All parties agreed, signed contracts, and the merger moved forward. The West pilots have a legitimate expectation that those contracts would be honored, and no means of seeking restitution other than forcing all parties to comply with the agreements. We lived up to our part of the bargain, the transaction occured, we cannot get a refund, and neither can the east pilot group.

What usapa would like to do is not negotiate seniority, but, allow the east pilot group to renege on contractual obligations owed to both the company and the West pilots and re-negotiate and already concluded process, that none of the other parties are interested in re-opening.

It goes beyond simple reneging. The East is demanding they be allowed to dictate terms to the west...unfettered, as-brutal-as-they-please. Of course they'll get nowhere with the illegal scheme. It's shocking to see how buried in the sand some of those guys are. Does anybody else find it hysterically ironic that if "seniority is like crewmeals" shouldn't east pilots, at a minimum, actually RECEIVE crew meals? I.O.W. the east failed at negotiating a free sandwich and they think they're going to pull off a heist of this magnitude? HA!

 

[nic4us]

The beauty of the C/Rs are you get what you brought to the dance.
JoeFL77

Unless you are an east pilot, then you get to steal what the West pilot brought, and come up with all kinds of rationalizations as to why your furloughed status deserves to be senior to West captains.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Lots of you hard liners and angry fo's will vote against but others will realize the reality and move on.

So throughout the course of the meeting last week, and continuing into the conference call, every single resolution brought by PHX was defeated without the support of a single East pilot. Everything was either defeated 8 to 3, or 7/3 vote. The recent glimmer of hope that Phoenix would gain even a single ally from another domicile (even on issues entirely removed from the seniority dispute) is now dead.

 

[767jetz]

The beauty of the C/Rs are you get what you brought to the dance.

This inaccurate statement has been repeated so many times by USAPA supporters, it is dizzying. Does DOH with C&R's keep the junior furloughed 17 year east pilot, or 18 year bottom junior reserve A320 f/o at the bottom, the same place he was when he came to the dance? Of course not. The statement is categorically false.

In various crew news it has been stated that the East is flying 4 percent of what could be considered West flying, while the West is flying 24 percent of what could be considered East flying.

So the West has netted 20 percent of what should be flown by East pilots.

As BoeingBoy points out, statistics can easily be manipulated to reflect the conclusion of your choice. Especially when taken out of context selectively. Examining the complete facts and details of such statistics usually reveals a much different picture.

 

[flyinawa]

It goes beyond simple reneging. The East is demanding they be allowed to dictate terms to the west...unfettered, as-brutal-as-they-please. Of course they'll get nowhere with the illegal scheme. It's shocking to see how buried in the sand some of those guys are. Does anybody else find it hysterically ironic that if "seniority is like crewmeals" shouldn't east pilots, at a minimum, actually RECEIVE crew meals? I.O.W. the east failed at negotiating a free sandwich and they think they're going to pull off a heist of this magnitude? HA!

I do.

 

[Ames]

So throughout the course of the meeting last week, and continuing into the conference call, every single resolution brought by PHX was defeated without the support of a single East pilot. Everything was either defeated 8 to 3, or 7/3 vote. The recent glimmer of hope that Phoenix would gain even a single ally from another domicile (even on issues entirely removed from the seniority dispute) is now dead.

Yes the BPR, comprised only of angry fo's and hardliners, will do that. I refer to what real line pilots will do. If a reasonable contract is stonewalled by the BPR the real pilots will react. Nice try, though.

 

[Phoenix]

That would all be fine and dandy ...

The company and the union are in negotiations.

 

[nic4us]

The company and the union are in negotiations.

Not regarding seniority. That has already been accepted and payed for by the company.

 

[Phoenix]

Not regarding seniority. That has already been accepted and payed for by the company.

The company and the union are in negotiations.

 

[nic4us]

The company and the union are in negotiations.

The company and usapa are in Federal Court.

Yeah, I guess you could call that negotiations?

 

[Phoenix]

The company and usapa are in Federal Court.

Yeah, I guess you could call that negotiations?

This lower court may choose to interfere with negotiations when then the 9th didn't. You can always hope.